What the heck is CHIM? And the Zero-Sum? Also, can a mortal become a god? Cuz i think i've read somewhere that any spirit can become a divine being just by having a cult, i mean ppl, believing that the spirit is indeed divine (or something like that lol). And what is a god anyway?

Since many people (if they care) will come in here and very thoroughly answer you question sooner or later, I'm just gonna say that yes, a mortal can become a god and I'll say that, while your other 2 questions DO deal with becoming a god, only one of them is the more viable, DOable path.

OK, there are people on these forums who know this a lot better than I do, but I'll give it a shot. CHIM and zero-sum are very inter-related. Zero-sum is learning everything in the world, and realise your place and disappear. CHIM is almost the same thing, but instead of disappearing, you change the universe so you are the most important thing, kind of. Vehk is the only confirmed case of someone achieve CHIM.

Mortals can become gods, but usually, after they became gods, they were never mortals. Not by having a cult though. It takes quite a bit more. Most the time breaking the Dragon (or linear time) is involved. Examples of mortals-become-gods are Vivec, Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Mannimarco, Talos and possibly the Divines (Aedra). Mortals usually become by mantling or apotheosis. The Dragon is always broke when a new God is formed.

What is a god? That is a tough question. Is a Daedra a god? Are the Aedra truely gods? What about the man-became-gods? It depends on the definition. Many people don't consider the Tribunal gods. Some don't consider the Daedra as gods.

And do you know of any in-game books where i can read about all of this? Thanks

What you need is a trip to The Imperial Library.

http://www.imperial-library.info/

Great site.

Vivec talks about CHIM in the 36 Sermons, which is in Morrowind. A lot of this information is in the obscure texts section, written by especially MK and Tedders.

Books that might help.
"Et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer"
"The Many-Headed Talos"
"Loveletter from the 5th era"
"Nu-mantia Intercept"
"Vehk's Teaching" (especially this one)
and "The Trial of Vivec"

Thanks a lot man

Vekh isn't the only one with CHIM. Actually he had it for only a very short time compared to others, and some say he never had it at all, some say it never really happened...

I bet I made you confused now o.O

No one else has achieved CHIM, although their is debate on Tiber Septim. And Vivec most definately achieved CHIM at the trial.

Your CHIM is obviously not my CHIM.

depending what you consider CHIM to be, both the champion of cyrodiil and the nerevarine achieved CHIM too.

Or rather, they always had it.

Where did that come from? That heroes had CHIM?

Right after Daggerfall and not Chim persay.

Like other Gods, each of the Numidia can maintain it's own timeline and do contradictory things in it as shown by the Warp of the West. However what is never explained is why seven Numidia appeared when there in reallity was only one.

It's this sort of conflict indicates that there were a number of other gods already doing conflicting things. Considering the only entity applicable for this is the PC, it means the PC has a divine stature.

This sort of principle can also be seen in Vivecs sermons.

Though saying that suggests the PC is the entity messing around with time; but it's the Numidium. If the Numidium were not there, then 7 instances would not have occured causing us to confer divine attributes to the hero.

Though, all heroes being divine? To me, that practically svcks all the qualities of what a hero really is out of the PC; since no longer are you facing destiny and winning through uncertainty, but rather; you've already won because your a divine thing and reality obeys you becuase you have CHIM somehow.

It can not be the Numidium because the Totem that controls it is given to one the factions in Daggerfall. Yet seven factions had control over their Numidium.

It's exactly what I'm saying. There were atleast seven PC's, each diverging history in their own way. Besides, who was the Emperors agent anyway?

But that is what it is, your are going to beat the game. The PCs having CHIM is a way to represent all the choices that one person can make at the same time, and all the different ways you can play the game. The PCs having CHIM is there to make up for the difference between mine and your games. I usually ignore this aspect while playing, and Vivec is the only NPC to achieved CHIM and be aware of doing so.

Hmm, well I still think it's a misnomer and a let down to be reminded of it that way. Though while you say CHIM represents the way the PC can play the game, canonically the PC follows only oen way which is the Main Quest. I see Daggerfall more as a one off - becuase of the Dragon Break - becuase of the Numidum. Arena's outcome wasnt a Dragon Break, nor was Morrowind's. Heck, the Nerevarine did a big number of things but he definately did it them all in one way.

Let me get my head around it though.. And don't even get started on the COC. :ahhh:

Right, if the PCs have CHIM, it's some pseudo CHIM, because we can all get killed by kwamas, and we all know that feeling.

Alright, had to throw this in there:

Vehk describes CHIM in the following manner:

"What is "chim"?

Those scholars that can perceive [CHIM] regard it as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#7)

What is "the Tower"?

The Tower is ...the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self...

What is "the Tower's secret"?

How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. ... Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say 'I'. The 'I' is the Tower."

Mankar Camoran says the following regarding CHIM:

"CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled." (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/mythic_dawn_commentaries.shtml#3)

The Red King Once Jungled refers to Tiber Septim/Talos. The "Once Jungled" part comes from the retcon (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/many-headed_talos.shtml) that changes Cyrodiil from a land of "endless junge" into the forested land of TES IV.

"The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after." (http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/mythic_dawn_commentaries.shtml#3)

Zero-sum is, in my opinion is when one sees the Tower but fails to "hold it together", which is disastrous for the individual involved.

___TWM

The closest belief system to this on Earth must be Nirvana of the Buddhists I think. Pretty much like saying Amida untill you've acheived your aim. Though, Nirvana is moreorless amalgamating yourself in with God, CHIM here is doing so but retaining yourself. Yeah, I see what implies; freaking hard, that's what.

Or perhaps, more closer, it's very similar to the inner terror the Kwisatz Haderach from Dune must face. "Seeing Beyond" means seeing within as well, and both are equally terrifying.

There really needs to be a sticky about what CHIM is; it would make things so much simpler.

But you still can't answer Prowelers question. There is really only one thing you can canonically say about the PC. He released the heart from it's enchantments, and I suppose you could say he had to go through Vivec to do it.


I feel like a broken record but:
"The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world. He sleeps the second way. The Sharmat is his double, and therefore you wonder if you rule nothing."

Sermon 11 is basically one big explanation of the PC's goals and his other worldly abilities.

Word Merchant, this actually says that Talos changed Cyrodiil becuase his people hated the jungle, not him turning Cyrodiil into "endless jungle". Obviously, it fits with why there is no jungle in game, but it's pretty poor retcon nevertheless.

Heh. I see that, now. Fuh. It's a change in thought I don't really welcome though. What happened to the "Letter written in uncertainty"? How do you reconcile that with the absolute certainty needed for CHIM?

Yeah, I was trying to talk to buddies while typing and just freakin' left out half that sentence. I fixed it, though. Good eyes, Hyamentar. :goodjob:

___TWM

You know who you were right?

But I never heard about that. It's a shape that is always new, nothing certain about it.

edit:

Sloppy.