Well I always wondered about the Chimer, how can they mean "changed ones", you would say that they got there race names before they became Dunmer, but when they were still Chimer they hadn't changed into Dunmer yet, so why call the changed ones?

Also, isn't it a bit strange that Azura appears as a dunmer in Morrowind while she hates dunmer?

Muthsera,

Your question has merit. However, their name is/was due to the following:

The Chimer were a group of Altmer who decided to change their religion, rebelling against the ancestor worship prevalent in the Sumerset Isle. They followed their prophet, Veloth to their new homeland, changing their religion, nationality, and destiny.

If one reads http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/aldmeridominion.shtml, then one realizes that, to the Altmer, "exile to the mainland is regarded as equivalent to a death sentence, since there is no purpose in living outside their ideal society."

Their journey to the mainland was a very, very drastic step, and an action that likely allowed no return. Their collective name is very appropriate, for they were the only ones who changed.


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

More likely they were called the Velothi, which is what they called and still call themselves.

Perhaps they were called something else before Chimer.

Yes, back then they were just like all other Altmer (or Aldmer, but for these purposes I doubt it makes much difference)...

I don't think Azura really hates the dunmer, maybe the Tribunal for breaking their oaths, but then she did curse the entire Chimer race for it...

The Chimer name fits with the *mer convention while the Velothi is the name they used. Much the difference between Altmer and High Elf or Dunmer and Dark Elf, although a bit less of a direct translation.

Who said she hated the Dunmer? The only race she supposedly hated, according to such sources as the story "Azura and the Box" and Battle of Red Mountain accounts, was the Dwemer. I don't know if there is any definitive source that says she hates the Dunmer, as they still revere her as an Anticipation in the Tribunal church.

For one, Azura doesn't hate the Dunmer. She seems to have, or have had, a vested interest in the success of themselves or their land - they were the most likely to destroy the Dwemer and continue to worship the Daedra.

As for why she appears as a Dunmer, it is the other way around. What better way to ensure your own significance than to make someone look as your brother and sister, especially as the Dunmeri looks are their distinguishing feature and that the family and ancestors are still two of the three most important things to every Dunmer, Ashlander, settled people, and Velothi alike.

I would say Azura does NOT hate that dunmer. Why? If she hated them, why would she go to all this trouble to help them via Nerevarines and such like. I'd say she still likes them, and wants them to like her again.

That said, perhaps it is true she hates the Tribunal, and she figured out that by using the Nerevarine like she did, the Tribunal would be stripped of their power. The Nerevarine, who was arguably her servant, had to sever the connection from the Heart to stop Dagoth, in so doing Azura was rid of her biggest enemies AND was made a hero to the Dunmer all in one move. Smart Lady.

Except that Dagoth Ur's rising power was already leeching away the Tribunal's power. His proximity to the Heart may have played a part in that.

The Nerevarine, who was arguably her servant, had to sever the connection from the Heart to stop Dagoth, in so doing Azura was rid of her biggest enemies AND was made a hero to the Dunmer all in one move. Smart Lady.

If you have read http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/nalionarticle2.shtml, and take it as truth, you will notice that Azura's use of the Nerevarine may have even greater significance. As the Nerevarine defeated Dagoth Ur, he/she also severed the Tribunal's connection to the heart. This effectively eliminated the protection the current Guardians of the Red Tower offered ( The Tribunal), and 'defeated' the one that could have taken their place in the process - Dagoth Ur. With the fall of the Guardians, comes the fall of the barrier.

I believe it has been said before that it is folly to think of Azura as a 'good' Prince.

I'm not sure if this is the right way to put it but Azura seems to be rather fond of Nerevar...

Azura would be very good as a politician. She is, in a sense. She laid the foundations for the Nerevarine prophecies, ensuring that they would not be forgotten and that she would retain some influence by making the Chimer look like her and thus, in the typical Chimeri way, have a sort of kinship with her. Now she's built upon those foundations by defeating Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal. If there hadn't been a civil war and King Helseth hadn't been quick to take more power after the Tribunal no longer bothered him, she would be the effective spiritual leader of Morrowind.

She might be one of the good Daedra Lords compared to the others, but isn't it strange how she always gets what she wants without compromise?

You DO realize that Azura's appearance HAS changed over the series, right? She didn't always look like a Dark Elf. The curse wasn't done to make the Chimer look like her: it was a reminder of the extreme treachery of the Tribunal at Red Mountain.

I'm basically saying I see no strong evidence that the curse was a product of narcissism rather than vengeance.


You DO realize that Morrowind STILL worships the Tribunal right, even in their terrestrial absence? The people of Mournhold STILL revere Ayem after her death, and no one even believes she's dead.

Azura wouldn't do that, as it would have been obvious that the Tribunal would suppress that idea, or attempt to. No-one believes the Tribunal killed Nerevar, so it must follow that no-one believes that it's a curse. Which makes the whole thing pointless, unless the reasoning was different.



It won't be too long before they realise. People may already know that Vivec is missing. And Helseth's increased power and the lack of intervention in the civil war will make people suspicious enough to wonder where the Tribunal are. They banned public House wars, remember? Now there's a war every House is fighting in and they've not said or done anything.

And the Dunmer are too accustomed to having a god or goddess who leads personally to continue to follow the Tribunal when they realise. Remember that the Tribunal's continued power is the result of Dunmer traditionalism, not the cause. The only other gods or goddesses that appear to have personal interest in their followers are the Daedra - primarily Azura.

eh?

Yeah, I always thought that the Ashlanders believed that fervently. The dissident priests might have also believed it. Vivec himself kinda admits to it the Sermons.

And when Azura changed the Chimer to the Dunmer as a curse, Sotha Sil comforts the people, telling them that the change was wrought because they are an entirely new people with new gods.

Muthsera,

I must disagree. The belief that the Tribunal murdered Nerevar and the Dunmer race was cursed by Azura because of it is a common "urban legend" that is well-established in Dumer culture. As a matter of fact, an official (and very common) Tribunal book that deals with Vivec and his Anticipation mentions it as follows: "For example, one of the most striking persistent myths associated with Vivec is the story that Vivec conspired with his co-rulers Almalexia and Sotha Sil in the murder of Lord Nerevar, the greatest of Dunmer heroes and generals. The story is derived from Ashlander oral tradition, and is flatly contradicted by all Temple traditions. Nonetheless, the tale is firmly established in the Dunmer imagination, as if to say, "Of course Vivec would never have conspired to murder Lord Nerevar, but it happened so long ago... who can know the truth?" http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/vivec_mephala.shtml)

Additionally, and to counter the notion that "no one" believes that Nervar was murdered by the Tribunal, I will quote the following two sources:

"Though many Dunmer, Tribesman and Houseman, died at Red Mountain, the Dwemer were defeated and their evil magicks destroyed, and the outlanders driven from the land. But after this great victory, the power-hungry khans of the Great Houses slew Nerevar in secret, set themselves up as gods, and forgot Nerevar's promises to the Tribes. But Nerevar will come again and cast down the false gods, and by the power of his ring will make good his promises, honor the Spirits, and drive the outsiders from the land." (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Nibani_Maesa and http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/nerevarinecult.shtml)

"They made ritual as if to summon Azura as Nerevar wanted but Almalexia used poisoned candles and Sotha Sil used poisoned robes and Vivec used poisoned invocations. Nerevar was murdered. Then Azura came forth anyway and cursed the Tribunal for their foul deeds. And so that they might know forever their wicked deeds Azura changed the Chimer into Dunmer, and their skin turned ashen and their eyes into fire. "Let this mark remind you of your true selves who, like ghouls, fed on the nobility, heroism, and trust of their king." " http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/nerevar_redmountain.shtml)

May JHUNAL illuminate your searches, for I remain...


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Darnit...you beat me to it, TWM...

<_<

The Tribunal call it a myth, so their followers are inclined to see it as a myth. It might be known of, but the key word is believed. If you ask any Dunmer on the streets of Vivec if he or she thinks that Vehk murdered Nerevar, they'd probably deny it.

As for your other examples, they either provide information on the beliefs of minorities who don't worship the Tribunal or the writings that the Tribunal keeps hidden.

I know the Ashlanders believe it, but they're far from the majority in the whole of Morrowind.

So the point still stands.

Muthsera,

For your point to stand, it must not contradict itself. Which is it? Does "no one" believe it, or does only the mongrel minorities?

I must disagree again. You have stated that "no one" believes that it was a murder. Now you state that only "minorities" believe it. Altering your point does not validate its previous incarnation. You have a new point, not a single, continuous one.

And not all of the Dunmer blindly followed the Tribunal. For example, the Tribunal banned colonization of Vvardenfell, but the Telvanni disobeyed it with impunity, for they have never been staunch Temple-goers.

Additionally, some Dunmer were members of both the Temple and Imperial Cult simultaneously (from in-game dialog).

Therefore, one cannot believe that a Temple doctrine was followed and/or believed as in some sort of hive-mind mentality.


I remain, in respect and debate,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Who says that besides Helseth?

Muthsera,

I do not have the CS in front of me, but it is either http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Asciene_Rane in Ebonheart or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Edwinna_Elbert in Ald'ruhn's Mage's Guild.

I cannot recall which topic gives rise to the information, but it's there somethere, and I don't believe that Helseth's dialog contains said information, although he is widely known to be a member of both.


___TWM