Yeah, the goblin dialogue is vanilla - several NPCs there have it, and one will even point you toward Goblin Jim's Cave. Goblin eyes and hearts are from MMM (and maybe OOO; I use both, so I can't recall which one adds them, but they're definitely not vanilla).

I've actually run into a bug with Whom Gods Annoy in Leyawiin, but it took me a while to suspect this mod for it: basically, after you talk to Rosentia Gallenus' friend, it'll advance the stage, but it won't give you a new dialogue option or any way to get Rosentia to actually give you the staff and let the quest progress.

It's a sidequest you can do basically right away (as soon as you talk to enough people in Leyawiin to get the rumour), so I don't think it should take too long to find it? In the meantime, maybe I'll fiddle my load order a bit, because I find it hard to imagine nobody else in this thread has run into it: it may actually be just my problem.

EDIT: Oh, well then, this is the same problem that was mentioned in the last thread, so I guess I'm not alone!

The newest version still requires Cobl right?

Also, is this still being worked on?

Bump.

Seems to be dead, yet again. Can anyone pick this mod up and repair it, according to the various problems outlined, above?

This. This mod promises what should really be in all games that calls itself RPG. It would be a great shame if it were discontinued.

I really hope someone takes care of the last few issues. This mod is one of my all time favorites. *hopes*

There aren't just a "last few issues." I'm sorry to say there remain quite a number of outstanding important ones, covered in the previous pages.

It will be best if I start with an apology to everyone who trusted me to work into this mod.
I'm afraid I grew a bit too detached from everything, but I came back to modding a couple of months ago. I had forgotten about the inner workings of this mod, so I just couldn't drag myself to learning everything again...

But you wouldn't believe what can you achieve with the CS wiki and too much free time.

So after finishing my other mods, I finally convinced myself to work into this again. I've read the previous thread and this one, and I think I've catched most of the issues in Choices and Consequences. However, I still haven't got round to Enhanced Quest Roleplaying, I'm not even using it. The reason is its a most incompatible mod, simply because it touches the vanilla quests. I've come to the conclusion its much better to make your own quests than trying to alter the very limited and borked ones from the game. While I found EQR very attractive when I knew less about modding, it was a mistake from the start to work with it. See the results: I have probably created one of the most confusing projects out there, and it will probably continue to be forever. But what's done is done, so I'll deal with EQR at its right time.

My efforts have gone to Choices and Consequences. I have a new version, built from the fixed version by Gabba. I have decided to name them 2.x versions, which may help to erode some of the confusion... or maybe not. Here is the basic changelog of what I've done:

-Altered the equipment of the Fighters Guild Examiners:All of them use silver weapons now, to avoid exploits with resist normal weapons.Blade and blunt testers get a helmet and shield.Block tester uses a warhammer.Armor testers use maces.The skill of the weapon testers now matches yours.-Altered the tests once again:In all the tests, invisible barriers will be placed to prevent you from escaping until the test ends.In the armor tests you can move around, but the space is small and you have no weapons. The idea is of you trying to dodge/evade some of the blows instead of having to take them all, which would make the tests much more difficult to complete. You get equipped with a dagger non-unequippable to avoid you using H2H. You can block with it, though the damage you receive is the same.Removed an accidental dependance on Obse. DisableControl is not vanilla command...Instead of Obse, I have restrained the player with collision boxes. DisablePlayerControls also disables the AI, so I couldn't use it.All your items are removed upon starting the test and you are equipped with appropriate gear to face the examiners. TRY NOT TO WEAR EQUIPPED ENCHANTED QUEST ITEMS BEFORE STARTING THE TEST, OR ELSE YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO EQUIP THEM AGAIN. NO EASY WAY OF FIXING THIS, SORRY.Once the test is over, all your items are returned to you.You fight the H2H examiner equipped with the same robe he uses, and nothing more.In the block test you only have a shield, a robe and a dagger which is just a placeholder for the shield to show up on you. It breaks with one hit, so you'd better limit yourself to blocking.In the weapon tests you don't get armor but an enchanted robe instead, and you use regular fine steel weapons (vs. the examiners' silver weapons). Moving quickly and striking fast is more important, as you don't have as much protection as the examiners.Weapons and shields used for training and tests are now worthless, in case you had funny ideas.And now, the big surprise:In marksman tests you use a training bow with 0 damage, some arrows, and a plain robe for not feeling naked. The examiner will no longer report you have failed if you get to far away from him while traveling to the firing spot, but only once you reach it.The fun thing now is the test itself. It is no longer carried outdoors but in a basemant under the fighters guild tower.Once the test starts, the three targets in front of you will disappear and appear totally randomly, but there's always one of them in sight. The higher the skill you are being tested for, the faster this will happen. Its as simple as wacko!-No longer does this mod alter NPCs directly, those changes are now scripted.-All the guild reward items have their bonus abilities and spells handled by the same script now, in a much more reliable way.-The bandits fingers are now handled with one script and one item less.-The FG sparring faction now has special combat flag, should help in avoiding other members attacking the examiner.-Added track of the number of diplomas you have turned in for each skill in the Cobl options menu. Note that it will only work with the diplomas you turn in from this version onwards, previous ones can't be detected unfortunately.-You will now need to have the corresponding skill perk to be eligible for the Mages Guild's magic skill accreditation tests.-All the reccomendation quests now require either the apprentice certification, or in some of them you have the possibility of paying a 500 fee to overcome them entirely, as before. Also unlocked some Sulinus Vassinus dialogue in the Skingrad Mages Guild.

There's a lot more, like script fixes and misc fixes to almost everything. I can't say its perfect though, its far from it, but at least I want to make it as good as possible.
So, if anyone has any suggestions before I release it (like how I'm supposed to release this, I don't even know which would be the less painful method, or things like "go to hell, migck"), I'd like to hear.

Hey Migck - just let me know what you want it to say and I'll update the main post however you want - or request this be closed in favor of a new thread.

I see your points about the EQR - even though it is an attractive idea.

So yeah new quests for the guilds would be awesome. Giskard did two like that: OMG and Fighters Guild Contracts. I've seen vapor-like threads for Thieves and Dark Brotherhood, but not much tangible.

Myself - I found this mod http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11246 which undoubtedly is outdated and unusable. But a great idea none the less - would need a companion mod add in as well like CSR. Still the idea that once part of a faction and obtaining a rank would let you order underlings around is neat idea.

Have you addressed the NPCs Yield and Realistic Fatigue issues? I'm betting that NPCs Yeild would have to be handled by Kuertee, but that RF could be handled here by just making it so that after an NPC gets up from being passed out due to 0 fatigue that they do not lose the script to continue the examination.

glad your willing to take this one again.

============

edit - also meant to report on another problem-ish thing.

That is the items that are requested by the other guilds (daedra hearts and wolf pelts) are way too easy to accumulate. My Nord has closed 15 gates and has 200 daedra hearts - he turned in enough to max out ranks - even though he has not the skill to make them yet. I'd think a system whereby this is reset after time or after each rank is attained that this would work better.

Literally took one drop off of the hearts to gain max benefits.

WOOT! Migck. C&C is one of my all-time favorites and I'm so happy to hear you're working on this beaut' again. Thank you, thank you, thank you.



- Does this mean that C&C will now be compatible with mods such as Audacious Magery/Sorcery Toll ? I think it does and that was something I had just realized was a bug (that you can cast all the the test spells without enough skill), but it seems you've fixed it already.

I'm also glad you to hear you're leaving out the quest parts of the mod. The faction stuff is the backbone of this mod in my view anyway.

This is good news. Glad to see you back, Migck.



I agree about trashing EQR, at least until such time as it can be carefully reworked from the ground up. Good ideas, there, but messing with vanilla quests was a bad move until all the bugs could be worked out. And they unfortunately weren't.

If you do decide to develop a new series of quests for C&C as suggested above, I'd recommend not releasing it in stages, since that forces the player to replay through all the basic guild quests each time a new version appears. When the new C&C of yours gets put up, I'll run it--but by my count, that's now 4 versions of C&C I'll have run. Don't mistake me: I'm pleased as punch that you've got it pretty much finished, but there are only so many times I want to cast the same spells and go through the same quests (and meet the same dead bodies under water) that I did, before. By now, those guilds should have a permanent reservation made out in my character's name. I really don't want to take out the time to do them a lot in the future, if you follow me.

Don't worry, I'm not changing the file name ever again, for good or bad. Clean saves with a mod like this are always a very bad idea.
I'm still polishing many things. I also find that the "turn items for rep" jobs are too easy, I'm probably going to nerf them down severely.

Realistic Fatigue: I knocked down the H2H examiner in the test, and after he got up he continued as normal. But I wasn't using realistic fatigue...

Sorry for writing it like if I were meaning that, but I'm not making new quests, I simply can't make something of acceptable quality in that aspect. I was talking about mods that add new quests in general.

What I don't know is how I'm going to release this. I'd rather make a new TESNexus page, or have Lingwei make it, so that I could start fresh. I'm afraid this has changed quite a bit of what Lingwei originally did.

Glad to see this is being worked on again

Ok, I'm adding more creature remains from MMM and Cobl for turning them in at the FG. All of them will give 1 pt of reputation, maybe its too little now but I think if you center yourself in that harvesting work you can achieve the needed reputation soon anyways, and there are more things to do to get reputation (maybe too many). I'm removing bonemeal because its worthless if you use Cobl glue, and is too common anyway. I will also be removing many too common ingredients from the MG alchemy lists (no more "tomacco" puns) and change them to some less common Cobl ingredients.

Oh, and I'd better explain the new marksman test better:
You go to a basemant with three targets in front of you, you are equipped with test arrows and a test bow. You can't get too far away from the examiner or you'll fail automatically. The targets disappear and appear using this script:

short randomfloat fQuestDelayTimebegin GameModeset random to GetRandomPercentIf random <= 33	LingFGTarget01.enable	LingFGTarget02.disable	LingFGTarget03.disableelseif random > 33 && random <= 66	LingFGTarget01.disable	LingFGTarget02.enable	LingFGTarget03.disableelseif random > 66	LingFGTarget01.disable	LingFGTarget02.disable	LingFGTarget03.enableendifif LingFGCertification.appmark == 1	set fQuestDelayTime to 5elseif LingFGCertification.journmark == 1	set fQuestDelayTime to 3.5elseif LingFGCertification.expmark == 1	set fQuestDelayTime to 2elseif LingFGCertification.mastmark == 1	set fQuestDelayTime to 1endifend

Basically, for the apprentice test, every five seconds a random counter will roll and there's 1 in 3 chances that the target you are seeing will continue to be there, else it will disappear and another will appear. You have to hit the targets at least 6 times.
For each rank of the test, the counter is 1.5 seconds less, and you have to make one more target in each rank. In my tests I have actually found it very difficult when attempting the expert test, but I'm not very used to shooters. I know its very difficult to judge this system without actually playing it, but what do you think of it?

Migck's back!! :woot: :ahhh: I totally agree with everyone else so far - focus on the guilds. Mods like Kragenir's Death Quest are good enough for vanilla quests, and I've found that it's really annoying that NPCs will say things like "I don't want to talk to YOU!" and then hold a conversation with that person anyway (and then end it with "Go away!"). :yuck:

Anyway, big thumbs-up for the changes so far. I mentioned nerfing the creature remains rep bonus before (don't know if you saw that or not), so 1 point/piece sounds good to me. Thank you for making it take place indoors - no more incompatibility with Open Cities!!

As far as the archery test... 2 seconds at Master could be a little fast, but playtesting would illustrate it best. I play archers often, so I can get off shots pretty quickly. I think anyone with that level of expertise should do well enough.

If you're going to do something for advancement in the DB, at some point (which I highly recommend), let me suggest:

* More murders to get in. Killing 1 person to get the attention of one of the most powerful assassins' guilds in the land is nothing short of absurd. There are a couple mods out there that increase it to 3 and 6.

* Something to prove your worthiness to advance in rank. Maybe Sneak and/or Security tests? Sneak is kind of hard to advance, even if you sneak around everywhere. Security, though, could work for both the DB and TG. Give the PC an unbreakable pick and tell him to unlock, say, 3 chests (you could just use the console to open them, so I don't know on that count).

Putting requirements in the DB is very difficult because their quests are chained. When you report to Vicente, your quest ends and the next one starts, so its very difficult to put something in the middle without many incompatibilities. Besides, I don't think the DB and TG care much for your skills as long as you get the job done. However I'm trying to unlock an "epic fail" in the last TG quest which didn't make it into the game (probably because Beth didn't want to frustrate players so badly). And since Lingwei originally did add some things to the DB (which unfortunately I removed because I couldn't complete a single one of those new quests) I'll probably look into the DB at some time.
Hmm, I'm helpless at the master marksman test, maybe its the most difficult test now... I've made the arrows twice as fast now, so the target shouldn't flash out before the arrows reaches it (thats VERY frustrating). I'll probably have to tweak it again in the future, but not until someone complains, and I will want proof that their char is legally attempting the test (No using the console to buff your marksman and try)

Edit: does anyone know if http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3844 can be used as a resource? The readme says nothing of legal rights, and I could use it in this mod. But the author has no posts nor topics in the forum recent history.

Ok, update finished, only thing that remains is what Lingwei has to say on the matter, I've already PM'ed him. I've more than surely missed a thing here or there but with any luck the bug reports will flow and will be dealt with.
I don't know what I will do with EQR now, if I hadn't been so mad about updating it too, possibly this mod wouldn't have grown so confusing. I was supposed to be supporting two mods at the same time, AND in the same thread... I was never the brightest light :banghead:
Also note, currently I've dropped the MMM plugin because it added to little to this mod. Given that you can already turn loads and loads of stuff to the guilds for faction reputation and cash, and that the OOO plugin adds even more stuff, I think there's already more than enough with that plugin.

I think that very much the DB and TG would care about skills.

What good is sending out an assassin or thief that if he/she fails would then send the heat back to them.

Sneak checks, security checks, etc.

Then with the Thieves guild instead of taking items to a fence how about turning them in for reputation. Or reputation gained from selling to fence (beyond what the vanilla already requires).

For DB - much like fighters guild with fingers - how about ears. But whose ears?

Actually the fighters guild one is kinda grizzly -if you really think about it.

I think the TG has already a good enough system with the fencing network and the fenced gold amount requirements.

Anyway, its been two days since I PM'ed Lingwei and no response yet. At least that way I can re-check things more thoroughly, but the wait makes me uneasy. I really wish to release this ASAP.

By the way I've found an exploit to the marksman test, if you think a little it isn't as hard as it looks. I would need an activator that really MOVES, instead of appearing and disappearing in a limited number of places, to make it really difficult. But I'll keep it this way for the moment though.

Meaning no offense, but I thought Lingwei had already stated his approval for your efforts in a previous thread devoted to C&C and EQR?

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=29022

Download is working fine.

So, just to be clear: If I install the newest version, I have to remove C&C for OOO and C&C: Looting NPCs?

And, woohoo! My latest character is a freelance mercenary/assassin, so I haven't joined any guilds besides Blackwood (trying that one for the first time), but I'll install it anyway.

Re: archery: I think blinking targets will be hard enough, especially at 2 seconds. Hitting a moving target with no time limit is hard enough; putting a 2-second limit makes it nearly impossible. Trust me on this - I sneak around in ruins and shoot at moving targets all the time, and I miss a good bit of the time. The spectral warriors are the worst - they constantly change direction at random. I swear they know when an arrow is coming and turn right before it hits them, because it's happened so often. :banghead:

Will this mean going through the various mage guild accreditations again? Is there any way through Wrye Bash to avoid this?

No, no need to re-take accreditation tests again. A C&C OOO file is included, simply overwriting will do the trick. And I haven't heard of a C&C: Looting NPCs ever.

Edit: wait, that must be one of the old MMM comp. plugins. Don't use it, it's no longer necessary.