I am interested in the actual lore of Sutch. I have been looking for concept art, and such but have only turned up the E3 videos which show gamesas's intended location.
The only lore I've found is http://www.imperial-library.info/cyrodiil_cities/
I'm pretty much interested in any lore other than that.

Thanks!

here you http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=72791987&pageid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=sutch. My brother's browser is to irritating to read it myself, but there are only 4 links for you to read through.

I'm pretty sure it was a city of Merchants that became very prosperous due to trade with Hammerfell, but I can't find my source.

Maybe it was lost next to the bathrooms in the Great Jungle of Cyrodiil.

According to http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/thief_virtue.shtml, it's in Hammerfell.

Perhaps Fort Sutch is simply named after the same thing the city of Sutch is named after? Bravil is named after http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Daughter_of_the_Niben, so maybe Sutch is named after a similar 1st-era warlord, who built the fort, and then went on to found the city?
Or who knows, maybe the fort simply set up shop outside town, like Fort Moonmoth near Balmora, and people started calling it "Fort Sutch" instead of "Fort Whatevermoth" on account of it being so close to Sutch City?

It was a city in Cyrodiil, it was just removed from existence early in the development of Oblivion -there was a city intended there.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-Sutch_Kvatch_Skingrad.JPG as you can see on the map there's http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Brina_Cross_Inn(and curiously there's a blackhorse courier that goes between Anvil and the Inn). There's also a cell in the CS called 'CountySutchDocks', with remains of what would appear to be docks.

Then pre-oblivion lore has it in Cyrodiil aswell, here's the old http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/forum.shtml, http://imperial-library.info/maps/tamriel_westmap.bmp

A far more likely reasoning with the 'Thief of Virtue', given all the other lore on Sutch, is that Hammerfell briefly included the area of Colovia prior to Tiber Septim uniting Cyrodiil, which given in the chaos of the later half of the second era seems entirely plausable, and the city has since wasted away to a mere ruin.

@TOYB
That was pretty much the same conclusion that I came to with Sutch and Thief of Virtue, is that the border moved across the town. The earliest time I found was "1E 1029: Empress Herta of Cyrodiil strengthens the Colovian West and expands the border of the Cyrodiil Empire to High Rock", with the next likely time being the early rule of Talos as you mentioned.

I've seen pretty much all the rest of that stuff, except the map (I'd been looking at the E3 video for that). Thanks for that!

If it is an old city that was in what once was Hammerfell, wouldn't it stand to reason that it would have been built by Redguard, and thus it would still have more of a Hammerfell feel to the architecture?

actually, in the early redguard maps, Sutch is in Cyrodil.

I think it just got too crowded in that area, so they change the lore and moved it over the river into Hammerfell...the border didnt move, the lore moved the city.

Unannounced to Bethesda, I'm smart enough to know not everything they want will be included in the game. Simply because I don't see it in my game, dosn't mean it isn't there. I didn't need a retcon to me why I couldn't levitate in Oblvion. I didn't need a retcon to me why I couldn't find Sutch. This is silly.

Thanks for your input!

This is, as I understand it, the lore forum for TES and I'm trying to learn about the lore of a city in TES. Nothing you said is about lore. What you did was a production critique. Please look for an appropriate forum for criticizing gamesas, or if you have anything lore-oriented to offer, I'd love to hear about it here.

While I was already aware that the city had been taken out for production reasons, I was not aware of the definition of retcon. Thanks for having me look that up, it will further my search for lore in Sutch, or at least it will go nice in my collection of 5 cent words.

Also, thanks for calling my lore request in the lore forums "silly" and implying that me and the rest of people on this thread, are not smart enough to know the ins and outs of game production.

Your insults really added a lot to the conversation, Subadim.

Now, if you'd kindly stop trolling, I'd like to get back to discussing the lore of Sutch.

Thanks again!

That is a strong possibility as well, however the city doesn't show up or fit in Hammerfell lore maps ever. So, when it does show up in lore, it only shows up in Cyrodiil.

If someone were to have spent a few years working on a Hammerfell mod, it likely wouldn't include Sutch either, especially since the city of Rihad is just across the river.

Slipping real quick into talking about game production instead of lore; I agree that the crowding in the area may have been a factor in removing it from the game, but if gamesas had a larger scale, bigger budget, and more time, then I think that Sutch would likely have been included since they did spend time and development resources on the city.

What we were discussing was an inconsistency in the lore of Tamriel, where a city is shown on a map in one province yet appears as a setting in a book in another province. I'm still leaning towards the moving border theory over the moving city theory.

Thanks!

Indeed, I have that Redguard map and there was also Sancre Tor, but there's actually a real explanation (before Oblivion) about why it became ruins. I don't think it has to do with the area being crowded at all. Cyrodiil is bigger than Vvardenfell yet for latter has something like 12 cities/villages more. Making Sutch would have meant more NPCs, more quests, more everything, I think they wanted to keep only a certain number of cities so the more casual gamer's heads wouldn't explode at the sheer scale of the whole province. That, and Sutch actually became only a fort which does not make any sense. Each of the bigger cities (it was marked as a bigger city in the Redguard map) have castles, which I guess are pretty old, so I'd be surprised they turned a big city with a big castle into a single fort ruin.

if you drop the passive aggressiveness for a second, you will see that Subadim was saying that Sutch is still in Cyrodiil at the time of Oblivion, and was not shown simply due to gameplay. Thats lore inasmuch that Sutch still exists. He was also calling the retconing silly, not your question for lore.

As pointed out earlier, all we really know about Sutch is that is at least in part a military installation that has changed hands a couple of times :shrug: our maps represent a very, very, very narrow timeset, and hence the lack of Sutch on any map of hammerfell doesn't mean that it never was in the province.

I'm going to agree with subadim, and say that it's probably still where it is, in some fashion, and it wasn't included due to time constraints. The heightmap for Cyrodiil still has a flat space where Sutch should be though, if I'm not mistaken.

Is that what he meant? Because the way I read it, he was making an implied comparison between the two of us by talking about himself in the superior, calling himself smart enough to see something he thought I'd missed, and then saying that he didn't need explanations, like the ones for which I was searching, for the content in his game and to look for them was silly.

Re-reading it, I can see both interpretations and a few more. He wasn't very clear was he?

@Subadim, if you indeed were posting constructive arguments about lore, then I apologize. To me, it seemed that you were talking down to me and calling me not-smart and silly. So if there was a mix-up lost in translation, then I apologize.



I would love your source on the military installation bit. The only thing I can find in lore that supports that is the mention by a http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/forum.shtml of the possible presence of imperial soldiers in the city who could help apprehend a fugitive, and that's only if the Dragon in the quote refers to a group of imperial soldiers.

As for the physical location of Sutch, it is shown to be in Colovia near Anvil and Kvatch on several maps, including the redguard one published by gamesas. However I have never found a map with Sutch shown in Hammerfell. I am leaning towards the moving borders story in which the city stays where it is, and the border moves over the city. Thus on an older map with the border in a different location, Sutch would be in the same location, yet in Hammerfell. I've even scoured the timeline for points where the border could move, and while doing so, I tried to imagine how the map would have looked in each era. As stated in earlier posts, I believe the most likely times are 1E 1029 and during the rule of Talos.

It would be much easier to pinpoint if I could find the date that the thieves guild was wiped out. Thief of Virtue is set in Sutch, in Hammerfell, 450 years after that event.

i was taking that document and oblivion's "fort sutch" and making an assumption.

I think it has been established that Sutch was at least partially developed and then mostly removed between E3 and the release. I don't care to speculate on why it was removed; I'm not all that interested. Interestingly, I made that same point earlier in this thread. So, if anything... Subadim was restating what I'd already said (in his own way, which is unclear to me), thereby agreeing with me, and now by extension you also agree with me. Thanks!

I'll have to check out the heightmap... like now. Thanks!

That is an easy assumption to make, and the quest line for Ft. Sutch seems to back that up, at least in part. That could very well be the case.

I've been thinking of an alternate scenario and I'd love your feedback Lady N (and anyone else). So, if the border moved over Sutch, then the city was a conquered city at some point. In that case, why not build an imperial fort nearby to help keep the locals in line?

Hey, no need to get worked up. He does that to everyone, wasn't hugged enough as a kid. Or is still a kid and is a egotistical brat. Just ignore him, that's what u do

Walter:...actually, s/he (I will assume neither gender) made a quite good point. :shrug:

Actually, I think I have misunderstood subadim completely and overreacted. Sorry for that, subadim.

One slight problem with the borders moving.

The only maps with Sutch on them clearly show it south of the river, considering that where the border is in oblivion I dont believe the border has moved over the city. Either it will continue to be in lore and somehow just explained away, or bethesda will just strike it out now, maybe the city was destroyed just leaving the fort :shrug:

another possiblity which has been used before to 'fix' past lore is to say dodgy map makers and that Sutch has been incorrectly placed on those maps and that it is infact in Hammerfell.

In the situation of the border moving, it would eventually move back when Tiber Septim unites Cyrodiil -therefore the explanation would still hold weight (prior to Tiber Septim's unification of Cyrodiil, it's entirely possible Sutch would have been in Hammerfell teritory, given the chaotic nature of the second era, bandit kings rising and falling, Cyrodiil being more culturally divided than ever with the Niben/Colovia cultural differences).

I belive Sutch is in Hammerfell now (and I sure that mention in "Thief of Virtue" was implemented to explain lore changes).

There's precedent for Cyrodiil losing its border cities. I think it happened to Rimmen, and Falkreath was lost as well. Also, the Remanada speaks of Colovian city-states, like Sarchal and Delodiil, which don't appear on present day maps. Mir Corrup and Artemon are two more unspecified cities. So, Colovian city-states rose and fell often. But, it appears Sutch was retconed to Hammerfell, very close to release; because there is no Sutch on Hammerfell's map and there is no mention in the 3rd Edition Pocket Guide, of falling to them. The Thief of Virtue never gives a date.

Anyway, TOYB and ModMan, you were not the subjects of my rant.

I think I understand you better now. Once again, sorry about before. Thief of Virtue gives a reference to the time period by stating that the thieves guild had been destroyed 450 years earlier. I just haven't found when that happened.

Good info there; I'm going to have do do more reading.

Thanks!

considering how many people in oblivion don't believe the thieves guild exists, i wouldn't put too much weight on the date. the guild could have risen and fallen a dozen times without the author knowing about it, or the fall of the guild could be poetic license.