I guess that's because Windhelm is much older than Solitude. Just wanted to say.

Is that relevant? The point is Ulfric didn't come around demanding Talos worship.

yes it is. IF he was not allowed (which he is not, according to "ban" that the Thalmor have to enforce because the "wimperials" are to lazy to do it) Then he needs to be removed as Jarl for endangering his hold.

It isn't relevant, because my point was Ulfric isn't the reason for Thalmor coming in Skyrim. I really don't care what you think of Igmund, although he is the one to blame. But that wasn't what my conversation was about.

Does it matter? Ingmund still "broke the law" and Ulfric was an accomplice for the Thalmor coming here. He could have said no or something, but he was all hyped up on getting Talos worship he refused to see how it could affect the people.

Ulfric=inadvertently responsible.

For me it looks like imperials are better at maintaining a city for a higher quality of life for its citizens over the stormcloak controlled Windhelm. In Windhelm you have a few elites living comfortably while the majority is in slums with crumbling architecture all around. A dump.

Solitude is the polar opposite. Clean city streets, well maintained architecture, and wealthy citizens from top to bottom.

Or he wanted to get back Markarth for his people. Don't forget the Empire was quite happy with what he did until the Thalmor got wind of it. Igmund didn't have to offer Talos worship. That is still on him. For all we know, Markarth could still be forsworn territory if Ulfric didn't do his thing.

You're arguing with a brick wall, man.

So your saying that Igmund should have allowed his hold to be taken from him rather than fight to keep it? cause the Empire was ready to hand over Markarth to the Forsworn even before all this 'ban' stuff. At this point, the Mede Empire has no real right to impose anything on anyone.

and thus, Ulfric is indirectly responsible for what the Thalmor are doing to his people now.

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

I guess it's a mix of both things, but you have to consider that Windhelm lies in a region with much harsher weather conditions and that Ulfric probably can't really take much care of his city because he has to spend many of his resources for the war.

But I agree on the part with the slums.

According to the Dossiers, the Elves lose. If the Empire wins, they get back on track re-arming for Round Two... and now their legion includes one of the Dragon Blood. If the Stormcloaks win, the Thalmor lose a lot of influence (as Ondolemar can attest... OWAIT) over the historical wellspring of strength for all three Empires of men... and one of the Dragon Blood takes up residence there.

Someone believes Imperial propaganda that was proven wrong, apparently.

Windhelm is a paradise compared to Bravil or Cheydinhal.

I think WIndhelm's primary problem is that it's hagraven-[censored] COLD there. Only Winterhold has them beat.

EDIT: Awww, censored.

but the Empire is DIRECTLY responsible for whats happening to the nord people. How exactly is Ulfric more so at fault?

I believe that many people around here have a bad habit of confusing age and bad weather with poor maintenance.

He isn't.

I just said he was indirectly responsible. If it was not for him agreeing to it, the Thalmor might not have known the Nords were going against the ban, that the "wimperials" were letting them, and that they HAD TO enforce their own ban.

Things come in threes.

If Ulfric's not at fault for failing to realize that the Empire was trying to look the other way on enforcement of the Talos worship ban, then the Empire is not at fault for failing to realize that the Thalmor strength after the Great War was a hoax.

Not really, since the Empire let them in and signed the WGC. So they're directly responsible.

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

Viking'd.

Pretty big 'what if' there though. Ulfric may have brought attention to himself but its silly to think the Dominion would issue a ban and then not go through with it, especially considering how important it is to their main goal of destabilizing Mundus.

Yeah, well, The Empire let them in AFTER the Thalmor found out the "wimperials" were letting the Nords get away with Talos worship...

Truth is, Ulfric still has some measure of responsibility because his actions led the Thalmor to finding out.

Unless they really werent. All you hear about them NOT doing so is from Imperial sympathizers, and its hsrd to believe give previously posted concern over the thalmors greater plans.

sorry about spelling. bloody hard to type on this phone

Some vs Most...Some vs most....I can live with that. Glad you admit it.

His measure of responsibility is very very slim when he was asked to fight the forsworn, was offered Talos worship as a reward, and the Empire was even grateful for it.