Thanks for accepting what I have been saying all along.

Ulfric is still responsible, but he was just the sword, so his is minor/indirect.

I still don't see the point of bringing it up. His responsibility in it is rather miniscule, almost to the point of not even being worth mentioning. It only is when people say it is his fault, when it is not. If that's the case, lets say the forsworn are to blame for their role in giving Ulfric someone to whoop in order to get a reward in the first place. See what I mean? Indirect responsibility isn't important.

He is the evidence against Ingmund in a corruption case. makes sense to argue over ingmund's right to offer something that is clearly banned, knowing that he only stands to gain his city, which was threatened to be taken away from him, again.

or even better, it's the empire's fault for taking away the Legion troops which left the Reach defenseless against the Forsworn.

Both sides of the Civil War + the Thalmor are at fault in a way, and let's leave it at that.

What I mean is why when we are pushing blame on the Thalmor coming in Skyrim do we even need to bring up the indirectly responsible people? It's like a wife saying "Well, if you didn't always have to be right about everything and make me want to prove you wrong, I would have used the sunblock and I wouldn't have gotten sunburned!"

No, that only works for the side who has more to lose by admitting they're to blame. I'm not letting it go off that easy.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1467752-which-side/?p=22874617

Please.....

I just wanted to show you guys that Ulfric had a part in it too, even if it was purely as the weapon that got the Thalmor's attention.

His "part" was fighting for his land and reclaiming territory. It's irrelevant.

Guys whats with this necro....oh wait.

Seriously, these are the exact same arguements with the exact same people with the exact same stance.

How many electronic trees have to die before they realize this?!

It is a chain of events:

Thalmor attack the Empire, which makes the Empire recall its forces, leaving Markarth open to attack from the Forsworn.

Nords still Worship Talos and the Imps let them

Because of the Talos ban, Ingmund promises Talos worship to Ulfric and his nord militia in exchange for Ulfric throwing the Forsworn out.

This leads to the Thalmor finding out the Imps are not enforcing the ban, and thus have to come in and do it themselves.

See how everything is connected? I sure do.

We already realize it. We don't care. Other topics of similar natures pop up continuously as well.

I see how it starts with the WGC, and the Empire.

and if it was not for the Thalmor, Ingmund would not have had to resort to promising something he would not have needed to.

Be thankful the Imperial gave Ulfric something of a rallying cry for the Stormcloak army.

Who said they were right?

Choosing a side has to depend on your character and backstory. As people have said in the posts above there are pros and cons to both sides. So it comes down to Free skyrim or not.

Yeah, but even those Character backstory threads manage to generate something new when they come up.

But I'm not seeing anything new being discussed here.

I think the mods should just create a Civil war thread in the lore section and just contain it there.

Or the fan-fiction section, it would fit there too.

Thats a character backstory thread, where you make things up. You can't compare that to this. The only reason people think these threads are so unusual is because they're more popular than the other constant reoccurring topics. If people don't like the thread, just don't come in.

And with that, I'm done. For now.

They might as well rename these threads "Stormcloak Recruitment" because all I notice are how the Stormcoaks seem to ignore the pure logic of why the empire let them continue Talos Worship or the reason why the WGC was signed, and focus on the fact that it was signed, all in the name of being right, and thus get more people on their side.

There is no logic to religious hunting. Plain and simple. Even less for allowing it. Take that how you will, but I'm taking a break so someone else can answer your response, but to me there will never be an excuse good enough for allowing the Thalmor to do what they do, ever.

Most of the civil war arguements are made up.

How much evidence is actually provided in game?

The entire thing is just speculation and Theroy.

"Oh, ulfric will do this with Hammerfell..."

"The Empire and Hammerfell will surely..."

I see "you are wrong because I cannot see why the Imps allow the Thalmor to hunt my people because I love Ulfric so much that even the mere Idea of the Emperor signing the thing to ensure that the province that got hit the hardest can rebuild and fight another day since they did not realize that the Thalmor did not have any men left and they could have easily overrun them with my headcanon of the Bosmer joining them to fight the thalmor does not compute." and that everyone should be a stormcloak because "religious freedom for my people is better than looking at how the outside world was affected."

Your statements are typical of the ethnocentrism and paternalism of imperialists, using that term in its broad sense. "The primitives need us and our superior civilization, they just don't know it!" It doesn't work that way, not in the real world and certainly not in this case. The Nords had their own advanced civilization while the imperials were Ayleid slaves, and they solved their own succession crises through the Pact of Chieftains. They didn't need a bunch of busybody Nedes to do it for them, no matter what imperial propaganda says.

can we quit arguing. The horse is dead and spirited to the soul cairn and everyon keeps beating the bones to bone powder.

This.