Civil War - I just cannot decide : V

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:48 am

(typo in topic header, should say 'civil war'. Unfortunately it does not seem to be editable).

This is weird, but after playing Skyrim for several weeks, studying all the facts known to me after from completing various quests, reading books etc and visiting both Windhelm and Solitude, and hearing both sides of the argument from both Jarl Ulfric and General Tulliius I still cannot come to any decision about which side to support in the Civil War.

This probably says a lot about Bethesda's achievement; they've managed to create two complex antagonists, and the moral implications of siding with either side are far from clear cut. It's not as if one side eats babies, and stabs kittens in the face, while the other goes around righting wrongs and feeding the poor.

So, I'm still thinking about it, weighing the issues and the possible implications of siding with either faction.

I personally don't like Tullius much (hanging around listening to his comments soon convinced me how insensitive the guy is) - however I like and respect Legate Rikke. I find Ulfric admirable in many ways, and broadly support his stance, as obviously the Concordat is completely unjustifiable.. but, at the same time, Ulfric's attitude toward, and treatment of none-Nord races (Dunmer in particular) gives me pause. What would Skyrim be like under the rule of one who holds such views? Could I even be inviting future genocide by supporting him? I also can't help but think that Ulfric's original actions seem hasty and ill-thought-out, and needlessly war-like creating a situation that could have easily been avoided.

At the same time, supporting the Legion has several obvious implications, stemming from the Aldmeri Dominion's involvement, which hugely complicates matters. Should I even consider tampering with that particular Pandora's box?

Of course, a third option may be to say "a plague upon both your houses" and support neither faction.

I don't think I've ever faced a dilemma such as this within a video game.. even Bioware games have never given me such pause, or caused such uncertainty.

Did any of you guys suffer a simila dilemma, or was the choice obvious to you from the start?

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:25 am

All depends on character. ( Didn't read D: )

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:42 pm

In my first game, I ended up joining the Imperials for personal reasons - my home was in Whiterun, and I was defending it. :hehe:

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:16 am

Son of biscuit, these threads will never end.

To contribute to the topic at hand, my decision on the matter for my character did go through some changes. When first playing did it seem like the rebels were you're friends because they're in the same boat as you. During that time did I believe it was obvious I'd be helping the Stormcloaks (this being ironic considering my character is Imperial). Eventually I thought it over in the long run and thought the Empire was the correct choice. My reasons being that I believe that they're the only ones that could actually face the Aldmeri Dominion in a second Great War, as I don't believe Skyrim alone with Ulfric could do it. My belief is the provinces within the Empire need to stop fighting each other and focus on the real threat that is causing all of this in the first place. Unify together, prepare, and finally take down the Dominion.

So at first I also had a tough time deciding who to fight for, but eventually you'll find your reasons for your character.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:08 am

It took me 'til last week, that's over a year and a half, to bite the bullet and swear fealty to anyone (my new role playing rule: Dovahkiin has fingers crossed behind back while joining the Legion). And yeah, Whiterun: Balgruuf ain't so bad so that swayed the decision.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:56 am

I went with the Empire, as I see them as the only hope for checking the Dominion. I'm also am having a very hard time trying to make a Stormcloak-leaning character. Why?

To me, the Stormcloaks in general, and Ulfric in particular, make a very deep and offensive mistake in their worldview. They think they're unique in what they've endured and lost. Hear me out here.

Look at the great war. Now, think of how the Imperials feel, seeing most of what they've accomplished stripped away. They've lost most of their armies, whole cities were razed, whole populations either destroyed or forced from their homes. Their nation was ravaged, their people brutalized, and to win they not only had to burn their own lands and seige their own capital, but had to allow the abuse of their people just to survive. Now they have to choke down the Thalmor, endure the abuses of the Elves and keep their rage in check, because right now they can't fight the Elves at their current strength. The Aldmeri didn't just strip them of their lives, they stripped the Imperials of their pride.

Now look at the Redguards. The only real "victors" in the war. Hammerfell is devastated even worse than Cyrodil, their allies were forced to cut them loose just so they could survive and now they feel as if they stand alone. Worse, any thinking Redguard knows that the Imperial Legions made the right choice in letting Hammerfell go, after the losses they'd suffered. It was a brutally harsh choice to make, but war forces those kinds of choices.

We have no idea how hard the Bretons had or have it, but being what the Thalmor would see as an abomination (mixed blood) can't be doing them any favors.

Now we have Skyrim. No massive battles were fought there. No holds annihilated, no populations butchered or displaced, no people forced to burn their own lands just to deny them to an enemy. Nords fought in the Legion, then were able to return home. Whats been done to Talos worshipers is both wrong and a great indignity, but aside from those that chose to fight under the Empires banner, the Great War cost them little.

And Ulfric has the unmitigated gall to tell the Empire and even Hammerfell, that Skyrim is somehow put upon so greatly that it justifies civil war. Weakening the Empire, the main bulwark of human strength in the world, even more in the face of what is obvious to anyone an upcoming war that will make the last one seen tame.

Skyrim and the Stormcloak rebellion do no exist in a vacuum. And few under Ulfrics banner have any idea what real suffering is. For that, they'd have to choke down their pride and talk to the people in the Imperial City.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:11 am

I think both sides are equally derpy so why not roll d6 and on 4+ you choose empire?

I got 5.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:16 pm

Flip a coin.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:26 am

If you don't know which side to join, then do not join them.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:47 am

I'll let Colonelkillabee's post speak for itself:

Spoiler

Civil War Arguments

(Give Credit If You Decide to Use this Please)

The moral and governing failures of the Empire

There have been multiple examples of the Empire's failings in history to their people. The relevant ones I'll give are Valenwood, and Morrowind, then later Hammerfell.

"In http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era#4E_29, the government of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup. Thus was the Aldmeri Dominion reborn." -The Great War (book)

This was likely possible due to the early negligence of the Empire during the Imperial Simulacrum, which admittedly was not the Empire's fault, as the Emperor was at the time held captive and was replaced by Jagar Tharn. But even after this happened, the Empire allowed themselves to be caught off guard by the Thalmor, and had no idea that they had secretly sided with Bosmer in Valenwood, and was completely taken by surprise when they decided to take it. Now, this was a simple error on their part, and no one can truly blame them for this, as the Thalmor are crafty and no one saw this coming. Even so, the civilians in Valenwood are the ones who are paying, as the game has hinted to us through Delphine that the Thalmor are doing some Ethic Cleansing. But After something like this, and after the Khajiit seceded to join the Dominion after they claimed they returned the moons that disappeared (the moons are a big part of Khajiit culture), you'd think the Empire would have taken the Thalmor as a more serious threat.

Go back a bit and look at Morrowind. During the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire, according to the DLC "Dragonborn", abandoned their provinces in an attempt to protect Cyrodil. They left Morrowind among other provinces unprotected to save themselves, and left everyone to the mercy of the Daedra. Morrowind citizens now resent the Empire despite it not being the same Dynasty. The developers made it a point for us to see that in game npc's still treat this Empire as the Third and same Empire, despite this one being the Mede Dynasty.This is likely because even though the Emperor is different, the way the Empire or maybe the Elder Council operates is inherently the same. An example of this is Hammerfell.

Hammerfell during the Great War was attacked simultaneously with Cyrodiil by the Thalmor. Hammerfell at the time was in a state of constant infighting (note that they interfered in Skyrim's infighting, but not Hammerfell's) and were taken by surprise when the Thalmor came in. Later during the war when the Thalmor sacked the Imperial city, the Empire ordered General Decianus to abandon his post and return to the Imperial City. If it were up to the ones in charge, the Empire would have completely abandoned Hammerfell right then and there. Luckily, the General decided to disobey his order, and discharged a large force of "invalids" to fight in Hammerfell.

All this shows that even though the Empire has not always been under the same dynasty, they still treat their provinces the same. As expendable. Valenwood was simply an error on their part, but when you look at all these failings, it is clear that the Empire is just unable to protect their provinces whether it be their fault or not.

After the heroic efforts of the Nords, Imperials and Bretons, even admittedly Titus Mede himself, the Empire finally took back the Imperial city. After this happened, the Empire signed the infamous White Gold Concordat, which would 1. Outlaw Talos Worship, and 2. Give away almost Half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor (admittedly already occupied by the elves.) While the Empire themselves could not afford to fight on, neither could the Thalmor. I used to believe that they could not know the Thalmor were as weak as they were, but the Great War book states that the info in the book was taken from the Thalmor themselves:

Author's Note: Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers.

And the book clearly states:

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

This means the Empire had a good idea of the Thalmor's state, but bought into their bluff anyway when they signed the White Gold Concordat. The Redguards of Hammerfell did not wish to give up their land so easy and wanted to fight on. The Empire instead of at least giving supplies to the Redguards or some kind of non combatant support instead just completely dropped Hammerfell as a province. They say they were forced, but the Thalmor, as they apparently knew, could not force anything. The Thalmor wouldn't be in any position to assault Cyrodiil for sending supplies even if they wanted to. You may be thinking that the Empire would need those supplies to rebuild, and you'd be right. But the cost of a whole Province being lost is greater than at least meager support of military supplies so Hammerfell could defend itself, and take back it's land. Now the Empire is out yet another Province, and they only have two, not counting Cyrodiil.

To reiterate.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1453352-taking-sides-between-imperials-or-stormcloaks-but-what-about-the-orcs-and-forsworn/?p=22489750

The “Skyrim cannot survive alone”-argument

This one is one of the simpler arguments to debunk, because any high school dropout can look at the map and see how silly this argument is. Here. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/918987149705159097/C22C10AE7A645DE484D4521251914E3138836D83/&imgrefurl=http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id%3D91249786&h=1202&w=1861&sz=93&tbnid=nBGo07R-Omi71M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=139&zoom=1&usg=__7BIkCEpKVKwWqHJ0jtswf0XmBMU=&docid=Tpko8a8T0KYY3M&sa=X&ei=l3tIUd2vEIyy8AT6zYGwCQ&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAA&dur=1510

Lets look at the two ways a military force can invade a territory. The first possibility is by Land. If the Thalmor were to attempt this, they'd need to go through either Morrowind (not allies of the Thalmor, and never have been, plus Argonians occupy part of it and are fighting the Dark Elves) or Hammerfell (obviously hostile to the Dominion) or through Cyrodiil. Now many say that there's the solution. The Thalmor have a treaty with the Empire, and they are allowed through Cyrodiil and Skyrim. Two things. One, the Justiciars are allowed, and two, whole armies are clearly not. How do I know this? Tullius himself says at the Empire is currently guarding it's border to watch for an attack from the Dominion. Think about that for a sec. If the Thalmor were allowed to walts in whenever they wanted, why the hell is the Empire wasting their time guarding their borders? It makes no sense. Clearly the deal of the Thalmor in their territory extends solely to Justiciars for hunting down "heretics" not their whole army.

Now look at Skyrim's natural barriers. Mountains. The worst kind. You cannot sustain an flow of troops and supplies through a mountain range. Not easily anyway. Couple that with the intense weather, and you have a complete supply chain disaster. Now, the Thalmor, assuming they actually did get through Cyrodiil in whatever fashion still would have trouble getting through even if they used the Pale Pass, due to it's treacherous reputation. Here's an example of how it caused trouble for Tullius during the Stormcloak rebellion:

^{http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pale_Pass#cite_note-4} In http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era#4E_201, the Pale Pass was closed due to avalanches, preventing Imperial reinforcements from helping to secure Falkreath Hold under Imperial control during the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Stormcloak_Rebellion.^{http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pale_Pass#cite_note-5}^{http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pale_Pass#cite_note-6}

In short, a land invasion is highly unlikely in the current situation. I didn't even talk about the obvious disadvantage of fighting in a cold climate that the Thalmor are not at all used to fighting in (their homeland is SUMMERSET ISLE for Talos's sake) against a people who are literally magically resistant to cold weather and magic.

Now lets look at what the Thalmor are actually good at. Naval invasion. The Thalmor are known to have the most advanced and powerful naval force in Tamriel. But even the most advanced naval ships cannot successfully invade without a safe port nearby to house reinforcements and supplies to sustain the attack. See how far away Summerset Isle is? It would be comically impractical to invade Skyrim from this far away, whether that be by land or sea. Even our real life history proves this fact to be true. The Thalmor can't set one on the coast of Skyrim to the North because one, they'd be under constant attack, and two, the Sea of Ghosts is as the name suggests extremely treacherous. They don't have any islands nearby to do this either. The only possibility they have is to anger the Dark Elves as well, and take one of those islands that are literally on the opposite side of Tamriel from Summerset Isle. Then they'd be fighting two nearby nations at the same time, and this time one of them is magically adept, and are as tough as the Nords are. So without a true safe port, this invasion tactic is even more unlikely to succeed.

This is why I personally laugh at those who say "without the Empire in Skyrim, the Stormcloaks are doomed." The Nords could literally sit back and gulp down some Black-Briar mead while the land does the fighting for them.

The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction

Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mer say that the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Nord are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1457178-what-is-your-opinion-on-the-dunmer-of-windhelm/?p=22588230

Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.

Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.

Ulfric is a Power-Hungry Barbarian, The “Ulfric murdered the High King”-argument, and The issue of Ulfric killing Torygg instead of talking to him.

An argument that is commonly defended is that Ulfric is power hungry and a savage. To those who say he's power hungry, you're right. Congradulations. But is that a bad thing? I assume when people say this, they mean that he is power hungry for the sake of power alone. That is false. He wants power so that he can do what his supporters want him to, which is to save Skyrim from the Empire's influence and restore Talos worship. Don't believe me? Does this sound like the words of one who fights for the sake of having power alone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A_5kBJduIg

For those of you who say he's just acting...come on, really? In his palace with the grand total of one stranger? No.

People also say him killing Torygg is proof of his hunger for power, because his court mage says he was a fan of him, and he agreed with what Ulfric was saying, and Ulfric should have talked to him first. Do you see the contradiction? Torygg's court wizard says Torygg knew of his agenda, and Ulfric stated them at the last moot to the point to where he spoke just shy of treason. Torygg, the High King of Skyrim should have said something then if he agreed. And they say he should have asked Torygg one last time before he issued his challenge, but from Ulfric's perspective this would have been stupid. He's in the middle of the Imperial seat of power in Skyrim at the mercy of the Emperor's greatest Skyrim supporter who swore an oath to him, and showed no evidence of agreeing with Ulfric at the moot, and Ulfric is supposed to risk being arrested for treason in the belly of the beast?

A counter argument to this is he just killed the High King, so obviously he didn't care about that to begin with. This is wrong, because Ulfric challenged him to a legal duel according to Skyrim's laws and would not have been arrested. A duel is a part of Nord politics, and after a duel is won, if the High King is dead, they have another moot, and pick a new High King. People say it is an outdated law, but Torygg agreed to the duel, so clearly the law is still in place. It was only an issue after the Empire came in and said it was illegal acording to Imperial law. So Ulfric went in knowing that he wouldn't be arrested for challenging the King to a duel. This is a political checkmate. Either Torygg agrees to the duel and he wins, and a moot is held, which Ulfric would have won due to being the winner, since Elisif likely would back down out of fear to him, or Torygg doesn't accept, and Ulfric has a good chance of winning due to Torygg looking weak. Either way if the Empire did not interfere, Ulfric may very well have been the new High King.

This does not sound like the workings of a savage to me. It sounds like one who knows his people's politics and knew how to play them well. People may think he's savage only because of the nature of the Nordic politics, which is outdated compared to non combat loving countries. Ulfric can't be held accountable for playing the politics. He didn't make the rules. And as said before, Ulfric did not murder the High King, he fought Torygg in a duel. Whether you think it was dishonorable or what have you is a different issue. Torygg knew that Ulfric had the Thu'um, and accepted the fight anyway. He also knew he was a seasoned warrior, and likely still would have lost the fight. To Nords, a duel to the death even with the thu'um that is revered in their culture is not dishonorable or cowardly. His use of the thu'um simply shows he was the stronger. Whether you believe that or not isn't the point. The Nords do.

Also: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1454121-can-stormcloak-people-explaine-this-to-me/?p=22498185

Indeed. Which means Ulfric would have wasted his time talking further, and he made the right call.

Another piece of evidence against Ulfric is "The Bear of Markarth". http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth

First, this book, while obvious propaganda to make Ulfric look very bad is filled with holes.

The prisoners don't even say Ulfric's name in Markarth, and as Tdroid said, the Jarl contradicts this book and even says he's the one who caused all this.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1450288-stormcloak-imperial-or-thalmor-no3/?p=22397367

And speaking of Markarth, for people saying Ulfric started the whole Talos ban enforcement because of the Markarth incident, you're wrong. Talk to the Jarl. He admits he came to Ulfric and asked for his assistance, and he offered HIM Talos worship, not the other way around. And when the Thalmor found out, Ulfric was left holding the bag.

“Ulfric misused the Voice”

This point is irrelevant, as the only people who follow this are the Grey Beards, and Ulfric who was training to be one was taken as a child to be one. While he does not seem to resent the Grey Beards for this, it still shows that he can't be held accountable for an oath he didn't willfully make. It is however possible that he was willing to make the oath, but he was still a child, and this was before his home was in turmoil. The Thu'um is clearly a weapon meant to be used. In the Nord pantheon, Kynareth, or Kyne to the Nords is a warrior goddess:

Jump to: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Kyne#column-one, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Kyne#searchInput
Kyne (Kiss At The End), or Kaan in the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragon_Language, is the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nord goddess of the Storm, widow of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shor, Warrior-Wife, and a favored god of warriors

Why would a warrior goddess give the Nords a power that is clearly meant as a weapon to be passive? Jurgen Windcaller only suddenly "realised this" after the Dunmer whooped him silly, then forced other Thu'umers into his way of thinking, claiming the gods punished them for their misuse of the Thu'um. This is a clear case of "Hurtfeelioma". Even with using the Thu'um, Ulfric still says he doesn't use it lightly. Ulfric did not misuse the thu'um. The Grey Beards say otherwise, but Arngeir also thinks you're wrong for using Dragonrend on Alduin to save the world.

The “Trade being hurt”

Trade at first will possibly be hurt, as the court wizard of Solitude says, but it will most likely pick up again, if it even drops at all. Why?

1. The trade between the two, namely Cyrodiil and Windhelm is just too important. Both provinces will need to keep up trade, because both are dependent on resources from eachother, and both need to rebuild, especially the Empire. They can't afford to cut themselves off of Skyrim's resources.

2. The East Empire Trading Company still opperates out of Windhelm. If trade was going to be an issue, why would they still work with the rebels and trade? Either the Company despite its leaders being originally appointed by the Emperor doesn't listen to the Empire, or the Empire simply can't afford to hault trade, and neither can Skyrim.

So because of these two reasons, it seems highly unlikely that trade will cease with Skyrim. Maybe it will deteriorate temporarily, but it is doubtful. Especially when the two are in war prep for the next Great War against the Thalmor.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:15 pm

I am not going to beat a dead horse. Lore will show what it will show and nothing more, so arguing over lore ramifications is arguing headcanon.

I knew another one will show up.

This is a good suggestion.

I think overall this is personal preference thing, as in which Jarls do you like more.

Me personally

Windhelm: Prefer Ulfric over Brunwulf.

Riften: Laila may be clueless but she is better off than Black-Briar lady

Falkreath: Will take lazy Siddgeir over paranoid Dengeir

Markarth: Want to kill everyone there and start over.

For all of Skyrim: I would rather have Ulfric AND Elisif rule jointly or split Skyrim in Half for the most part, with Ulfric taking East, and Elisif taking West.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:24 am

Not really. Even when she is not jarl, Maven is in complete control of Riften and indeed if you install her on the throne she will say that the title is only a formality for her. Laila is so unfathomably stupid that she appointed Maven of all people to curb crime in Riften, which alone should show how distant she is from her people. Couple that with her through-and-through corrupt steward and inability to catch a single drug dealer and you're set for a ride with the most incompetent jarl in Skyrim.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:03 pm

still, she is better on the seat that Maven will ever be.

Would it be better if I supported one of the other Stormcloak Jarls, who are in no way able to support their hold because they hate people inside it.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:24 am

Actually, the Legion doesn't have much love for the Thalmor either.

Legate Rikke: "If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim."

Hadvar: "Even I'll admit it hasn't been the Empire's finest hour. But it wasn't like the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Emperor_Titus_Mede_II_(real) had any choice, did he? If he hadn't signed the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat with the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor, they would have destroyed the Empire - then where would Skyrim be? That's the part that Ulfric's supporters always conveniently forget about. Unless the Empire stands together, the Thalmor will destroy us all."

And well, if the Dunmer situation upset you, that's because you haven't talked to the Argonians in the docks outside. It's worse.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:02 am

except there is evidence that the Thalmor have nothing left in terms of a military force to destroy the empire with...

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:20 pm

The Great War took place a long time ago. They surely have recovered after 30 years.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:15 am

That's debatable. Germany lost WWI in 1918 and were still sort of beat down when WWII started.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:59 pm

The developers did this on purpose.They made both sides equally right and equally wrong and equally gray.They did this because of the open world nature of the game.That way you can create/think of/RP your own interpretation of the events depending on the character you wanna play.

Basically they provided you with a world which you can model based on your own design about what should happen and what story should be told.

If you want the Stormcloaks to be the bad guys in a certain playthrough then they are.If you want the Imperial loyalists to be the bad guys in another playthrough ,then they are.

The few certain things are that the Thalmor and the Dominion lose in the end(thalmor sympathiser is the one thing you can't be in this game) and that it's a good idea to stop Alduin.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:11 am

Mer reproduce much slower than men.The mer forces should be basically the same as in the end of the Great War,unless they started some kind of draft or conscription to at least replenish *some* of their forces.Still their military machine and manpower reserves are very much spend or at least not what they used to be and they can't conquer mankind anymore by brute force(not sure if they ever could)

That's why they need the Civil War in Skyrim to continue a long time in an indecisive stalemate.If it stops and either Ulfric or the Legion wins,they are screwed.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:00 am

Not to mention that the Thalmor no doubt lost some of their mages during the war. Anyone can be trained to use a sword but the Thalmor won't easily replace their wizards with decades or possible centuries of experience.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:41 am

I wonder how the Stormcloaks would fare if the Thalmor and the Wimperials teamed up to put them in their place, and they had no army of tongues, which they do not.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:04 am

Fare? Against both forces? You kidding me? The Empire was already beating them down before the player arrives in Skyrim. I mean when does General Tullius get captured by the Stormcloaks? All of this done with an under trained Legion mind you. Ulfric knows hes being beat down, hes not an idiot, thats why he makes those pansy land garbing demands during "Season Unending".

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:58 am

Join the Dragon Cult.

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:14 pm

*is unsure of who of the two barbaric sides to join?*

Check

*Is not a savage nord?*

Check.

*Is willing to do what is TRULY right for Skyrim and it's people?*

Check.

Mortal, I have good news for you! The benevolent Dragon cult of yore still exists today! Join now, and secure a prosperous Skyrim for the future!

Free health insurance!!

» Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:29 am

Nope. Elves Reproduce more slowly, in fewer numbers, age more slowly and have shorter spans of fertility than humans.

not to mention that the bulk of their army's might is composed of master wizards and they lost their entire invasory army. Which means they have to train new master wizards, which will take lifetimes for them to come of age, then take lifetimes to train once they do.