I just read up on High King Toryyg, and I discovered he considered Ulfric a War Hero, and looked up to the man highly. He even took interest in Ulfric's decision to secede from the Empire. It said that when Ulfric came to Solitude, Toryyg thought he was there to further discuss the idea of secession and openly welcomed him. But Ulfric unfortunately challenges Toryyg and kills him.

I was wondering, what do you think could have been? Assume Ulfric did not kill Toryyg, but they rather discussed secession, do you think Toryyg and Ulfric would have led the idea of secession together? Do you think the other Jarls in Skyrim would have been more openly agreeable to the idea of secession? Would Ulfric be viewed as badly as he is now?

The fact that Ulfric just walked in and defeated his biggest fan makes me think Ulfric is just in it for the power, as so many claim he is. Either that or he is a terrible planner.

I've also wondered what could have happened if Ulfric was executed in Helgen; would the Thalmor still try to instigate the Civil War somehow? And why did they do nothing to stop the execution if Ulfric was such an important asset?

I think we can stop calling it a Civil war and just call it a Civil arguement.

Torygg's mage says he never shared any of this with Ulfric. He had no idea he felt that way when Ulfric spoke out, and she even says he likely wouldn't have sided with him anyway.

It's Torygg's fault for not speaking his mind like a big boy King.

If Torygg agreed to Secession, he would have to be a weak King indeed. . . .

If Ulfric was in it for power, he wouldn't ask the second coming of Talos to stand beside him for his big speech after taking Solitude.

Torygg was only high king because the Emperor made him so. He was the Emperor's man in Skyrim, and showed it with his long, boring speeches about how great the Empire was (ask the lady who runs Bits and Pieces). He was as likely to declare independence as the Thalmor are to have a change of heart and say: "You know what, forget that whole Talos ban thing. What were we thinking? Let's just all be friends."

Ulfric removing Torygg was a necessary step to independence. Skyrim can never be free with him on the throne. If Torygg had refused to fight Ulfric he most likely would have been forced to abdicate, which would have also suited the Stormcloaks just fine. So when you look at it, the duel was a carefully planned move. Torygg was checkmated either way. Well, unless of course he actually killed Ulfric in the duel. If he had been the high king Skyrim is supposed to have - a strong warrior who defends his people - that is what would have happened. But if Torygg was that same kind of king, then the Thalmor would not be roaming the countryside kidnapping and murdering his subjects at will, and his wife and the Legion's commander would not be enjoying the Thalmor Ambassador's parties. And of course if Torygg had been a man with steel in his veins to begin with, Ulfric would never have challenged him in the first place. He'd have been fighting the Thalmor alongside Torygg instead.

The Thalmor would not have tried to keep the war going, because as long as there as rebels who hate them, their lives are in danger. This isn't like the uprising in Valenwood where lots of the native population supports them, this is a foreign land where 100% of the natives hate the Thalmor.

Also, if the Stormcloaks win, yes it weakens the Empire, but the Dominion thus loses its foothold in the province with the most Talos worshipers, and the Thalmor would never advocate for that.

Excuses to justify his arrogant and aberrant actions.

I disagree here. Whether or not he wants power, he would have you stand there. Wanting power doesn't mean you can't recognize another person for their help. I don't know if power is what Ulfric seeks. Even if that is part of it, he has more motives than that, and those ones (Talos, defeat the Thalmor) are good causes.

Dude he is supposedly fighting for talos. If anything he should be begging the dragonborn to be his high king, but nah we just stand next to his royal greatness

Probably because having a dragon soul doesn't mean you can lead men.

It does mean you can drop some men though, am I right? Hahah. But yeah, being Dragonborn doesn't give you the ability to lead. Just the ability to be awesome.

Colonel do I have to put a leash on you or something? Remember are little chat on the last civil war thread? I'm going to hold an intervention soon...

Toryyg′s mage is a LIER-

You don't even have a chance of breaking his addiction.

He is doomed to post in this type of thread until TES VI at the least. Sorry Colonel.

Ulfric had the opportunity to flat out ask Torygg.

Instead, he opted to go straight to killing him. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 drakes.

If he planned on killing him, what would be the harm in making one last-ditch imploring to secede?

The answers I see is that he wants to have a go at the Empire more than he wants to free Skyrim. That and the Thalmor are egging him on without him even knowing.

I have always wondered this. Even if he said no, I don't think he would have been arrested. Or would he? I don't know.

Because he could be charged with treason and the guards could have arrested him. Torygg was known to be a huge Empire supporter. Would you ask a guy to betray someone he's obviously loyal to if your life was at risk? He already spoke up at the last moot just enough to avoid being accused of treason. What more do you want?

If Torygg said no and Ulfric offed him anyway, my argument that this cements Ulfric as a bully would not exist.

An arrest attempt probably would be made, but I'm sure Ulfric would get a few draconic words in edgewise. And he had the doorman in his pocket as the last part of his exit plan anyway.

I doubt the guards could have stopped him before he used the Thu'um though. Couldnt he have done that and ran? But I understand what you are saying.

That would achieve nothing. Like I said, he already tried, and Torygg said nothing. He already took a big risk doing that. Anything more would have been stupid on Ulfric's part.

Dude you realize ulfric can't win without the dragonborn right? Just because we are never put in the position to lead the bumcloaks does not mean we can't. Besides dragons dominate by nature, we should be high king. Screw ulfric the rat and the imperials.

Being able to stand at his side means Ulfric realizes the boon it is to have the Dragonborn side with his cause. If he were power hungry, he - like every other villain in every other story ever - would try to hid us away and control us. That way he'd be the hero who removed the Empire. He doesn't do that, he allows us to be the hero of Skyrim, so I don't see him as power hungry.

What would that have accomplished? Torygg would have still been High King, and Ulfric would be a traitor. Except he wouldn't have as much support with Torygg still alive. He made the right move.