You had to learn all those things before you could do them at all or do them effectively. It's the same thing with what I'm proposing.

If you have not trained non-class skills, you should be either very ineffective or completely ineffective at them. I am not proposing that you can NEVER learn non-class skills.

The problem with TES fans is that they are over-zealous about certain things - just because they have been used in most of the games released so far. Okay, so I understand it's important to stay true to the lore (because that is what Bethesda refer to and gives the world an authentic sense of consistency); but I do not understand why people would object to a TES game using a class-system or skill-system such as that in Fallout:New Vegas.

I like Fallout New Vegas' skill-system - mainly because you can't really become an expert in all trades. In real life, you don't find people becoming experts in all trades and people specialise. Some people are naturally more talented than others; regardless of amount of effort.

And yes, the issue of replayability is brought up. Some may argue that the player should choose restraint if he wants to prevent his character from becoming "jack of all trades" - but that defeats the immersion. The reason it defeats the immersion is that characters of a certain educational background or life experience may find it MUCH HARDER to grasp and deal with certain skills/situations than others. So yes, I think "class" could be a substitute for personality type or assumed experience after character creation.

I also think all classes should have basic skills (including knowledge of basic spells). But I think it should be much harder to get to higher levels in the ones that your chosen character is not comfortable with. For example, I know how to cook and I know enough math to get me about - but i have ZERO motivation for advanced mathematics at the bleeding-edge of cosmic physics, and i function much better at language skills and art, etc. I have friends who are great computer scientists, but they couldn't write beautiful poetry to save their life and neither do they have the psychological history or motivation to learn or delve into that area. If they wanted to, they'd find it difficult. This is just the nature of things - only rarely do we have people find that learning all the different things in the world are equally easy.

I like how in so many threads TES fans tend to boast about themselves as being "above" other game series, to the point that they often attack each other as not being "real" fans if one person says anything slightly out of turn, but the instant they glance over something that vaguely sounds different they magically become completely illiterate.

Almost all these responses are vehement knee-jerk reactions about how TES always lets you be anything and/or everything. I'm sure it would be very impressive if anyone had actually suggested otherwise at any point.

We have different views on whether or not someone in Tamriel is capable of casting a spell at that moment in time I suppose. In my opinion, I think those who haven't ever learned any sort of a school of magic should not be capable at that moment to cast that certain spell, even if they purchased it. First they have to learn a bit of that school of magic before they can cast that spell.

That's where we differ.

I didn't say impossible, I said arduous. Difficult. Some skills will not max, because the effort to make them max out would be too time consuming. Not impossible, difficult. This is the familiar sacrifice classic RPGs evoked, to diversify the player's game, so becoming God of War would take time.

Besides, Specialization implies you excel at something, where as you don't in other areas. Daggerfall had an Advantage-Disadvantage system, and Fallout used Traits. These defined the character, who may become very skilled in all areas, such as yourself, but must make sacrifices along the way.

Once again, the games already work this way. If your spellcasting skills are low, you aren't going to be able to cast spells often, you aren't going to be able to cast them well, and they aren't going to be very effective. In the case of actually useful spells, you probably won't be able to cast them at all. The same applies to most things - a low sneaking skill makes it pretty much impossible to actually sneak, and low combat skills make combat encounters completely unmanageable (or at least, should - Oblivion wasn't like this, but that was a balancing issue more than anything).

You're demanding a hard barrier here where none is necessary. There's already a curve that bottoms out at "useless" for the skills in the game, and you're not really giving any compelling reasons why we need anything beyond that.

EDIT: The difference of opinion here is that you think one of the basic systems in the series that's always worked the way that it does and that's served as one of the draws for a lot of its fans should be changed to suit an assumption you've made about Tamriel based on... I'm not really sure what it's based on. I just don't think that makes sense on any level.

Actually, we are talking about a skill that does little more then heal a rat bite, and since we dont know what he learned as a child from all the Elders /what have you, like in sorry,( fallout), then why remove the basic spell, and lets face it, how many of you couldnt pick a lock on a simple diary or such like ( glove compartment), and almost all of us know aloe plants have some healing properties, and If someone stabs at you we all know how to hold up something in front of us, and how to swipe at someone with a stick/sword,..... so it comes down to that, what we pursue once we leave the prison/cave what ever at the beginning of each game, so no one is a purity at anything in real life, so why or how can we expect to be in the game either.

Exactly

One thing I always really enjoyed about Daggerfall, Morrowind and oblivon is that I could start as a warrior and later on learn magic, or vice versa.

I enjoy it because it opens more of the game for me and its good for roleplaying, Why cant a good warrior decide hed like to be an illusionist as well?

So, no, I dont want to see TESV become more class-centric.

What I would do, as far as the whole tutorial thing goes, is just keep the tutorial focused around using skills related to a class you would pick beforehand, and then if you want to get into non-class related skills, then you could get a tutorial later on in the game from a trainer if you want it. And indeed, I think we should get the ability to just figure things out by ourselves if we want, but that would be hard to implement.

I think any character should be able to become decent at every skill; but I do NOT think it should be possible to eventually become an expert at both magic and melee combat. Some people are just naturally more focussed than others in certain areas. I'm more focussed and motivated towards language than math. Unless of course, you want to assume that the protagonist is robotically uniform and inhuman in his character and motivation.

Character creation also assumes that the player developed this way throughout youth, and youth experience affects ability and willingness to learn in certain areas.

I see your point.

My biggest gripe though is that a pure warrior should not start out with any spells in the beginning of the game. I suppose if he wanted to learn very basic spells, he could, but you don't see most members of the Fighter's Guild casting beginning level spells. Most members of the Fighters Guild don't seem to care about magic at all, but perhaps I'm assuming too much. To me, some people in Tamriel who don't have any spells adds variety to character and to the world.

I disagree with you example, however. One who purchases a spell has purchased the training and knowledge for casting the spell. Frankly, I don't like the magic schools as skills. I'd combine magic into three skills: Meditation (influenced by the Will Attribute), Alchemy (influenced by the Intelligence Attribute), and Conjuration (influenced by the Personality Attribute).

Everyone's capable of using magic. Spells are words, thoughts, and hand-gestures, which beguile a spirit into possessing the caster's body. For example, every time someone prays to a god, they're performing magic, by evoking a spirit.

Well, like I've said that seems more like an Oblivion-specific issue than anything. Oblivion tried to present the player with every element of the gameplay before making them decide on a class, and that meant they had to provide the player with some basic spells so that they could get a handle on spellcasting. Really, there's no reason to be starting with those spells in the new game unless they try to put another mandatory tutorial like that in (and I'm praying that they don't).

If I can't use the skills till I train them, then how am I supposed train them in the first place? Trainers? That would cost a fortune, not to mention that Bethesda will very likely implement a "5 training sessions per level" system again. If you want to confine yourself to a few skills, that's fine, just don't force it on me too.

That is why I love TES so much. On Oblivion, I made a mage character, with the matching class and birthsign. Then, after beating the main story and the mages guild, as well as maxing out my restoration, destruction, etc., I strapped on some heavy armor and tackled the fighter's guild. Who are you to ask me to give that up?

Once again its the whole fast-travel thing. Just don't use them. We are all big boys/girls and have the ability to prevent ourselves from using them and if it breaks immersion for you start using that thing called imagination and pretend your character doesn't know them. They put them there for a reason obviously because of the tutorial and while the could have had them removed after you picked a class I suppose, they didn't.

I think class-centric gets to much to be like D&D style games and that is not what TES is all about IMO.

If you don't like a large, pink, flamingo top-hat with a talking robot that shoots a laser beam at anyone you look at... well, you get the idea. "Just don't use it" isn't really a valid response to anything, since everything in the game is going to have an effect on its tone and feel whether or not it's used.

I love the way Nehrim limits you, with spell "levels" dependant on your skills, with 0-15 ish being "not able to cast spells for this school" and such, then level 15 to 30 you are able to cast the first tier of spells. meaning if you are below level 15 in a certain school of magic, you need to get education to ba able to begin.

I would limit this to magic too, anybody can pick up an axe and swing it around wishes, or try to shoot arrows with a bow, he won't do it well, but he can do it. but someone who's just starting out, shouldn't ba able to buy a spell at edgar's and cast small fireballs like a pro.

All in all, i think magic should be a learned skill first, then improved by using it.

as a side note... how interesting first grade teaching would be if all the kids knew "flare"... we'd be paper-free in no time!

:goodjob:

Real people don't have a character class. I haven't got one and I bet the OP hasn't either.

Please no! I refuse to touch games with rigid character classes. I loathe them with a passion.

I definitely think we should keep the skill based system.
I think it worked well in Oblivion.
I was thinking about ways it could be tweaked though.
What if you didn't choose any skills as main skills.
If you train a skill to 100 and then quit using it then you could lose skills levels in it.
Perhaps have a way to lock a limited number of skills so you never lose levels in those skills, but be able to change which are locked at any time.
Then you could get bonuses automatically given to your attributes at mastery levels and those would go away too.
But at the very least I'm fine with oblivions system.

I agree with all of this. Except, I think that alchemy skill should be an exception and be available for stealth based classes too. Assassins need to be able to make poisons.

I think that race should factor in somewhere.

A Khaajit with 100 speed should be faster than a Bosmer with 100 speed, for example. Race should be more than just starting characteristics. Unless... Unless it is and I missed it.

At the end of the day it should be pretty easy for someone to not look at their spell book and not bind spells to the quick keys if they don't want magic.
I would much rather start the game with a simple versions of all spells from all schools of magic than have to buy those spells from mages.
I prefer to think of magic as something manifested from within and not from a book.

I like being able to build up my character and develop new skills while utilizing the ones that enhance the character's chosen vocation.
I don't want to be boxed in to only being able to play as pure magic mage, ubersneak thief, or soldier.