Amen to that.


Guess what? Steam DRM doesn't work at all either.


I'm definitely not going to buy Skyrim if it forces me to active the game online through third party software. And I think you should at least check Wikipedia for a proper definition of fascism.


You should spent some more time on the internet. For the casual pirate Steam games are just as easy to get as games with a simple diskcheck, they just may have to wait a few days longer than usual for pirates who crack the games to do their thing.


I'm pretty sure that's the case. It seems that every time a game flops, the developers or producers blame piracy. They never consider that maybe their game, or the 'services' it requires, just plain svck.

You say Steam is a terrible service, your wrong. Millions of people disagree with you. The sales numbers disagree with you, and apparently game developers disagree with you because they keep putting their games on Steam. You don't have to like it, I actually agree that games shouldn't require Steam unless there made by valve, but what your saying is a lie, said by someone who doesn't know what their talking about. Go on a head and hate Steam, but you can't say it doesn't work or is unusable. That's just not the case.

You assume everyone who uses Steam are as desperate a fan boy as yourself, that is obviously not the case just by looking at the replies to this thread and others like it.

Whatever your motivation is, threads like these don't help improve whether you think improvement is necessary or not.

Steam isn't popular with devs because it's all kinds of chocolate awesome, it's popular because it's a risk-free, easy way to DRM games with zero investment. And the alternatives aren't there, unless they make their own DRM system, in which case it is a risk, it isn't easy, and it costs money.

The single biggest misconception about Steam is that it isn't an insult to us (the gamers).

In fact, it is two insults to us.

First the publisher insults us by stating "even though you have never stolen anything, we believe you to be a lying little turd who is just waiting for the opportunity to steal, therefore, we are going to force you to use a completely unnecessary system that only prevents casual piracy all the while making your gaming experience at least one step more complicated than it needs to be". The first insult is that they are openly accusing every single one of us of piracy. No attempts are made to profile or target their anti-pricary attempt towards actual pirates, instead they blanket every single one of us, impuning our integrity.

Next they insult us again by lying to us. They constantly state that the reasons for using Steam are to "prevent piracy" or to "provide a digital value added experience". The fact that they are both completely false statements has yet to deter any publisher from making them. Steam is designed for one purpose, and that is to maximize revenue by completely eliminating the ability for consumers to resell. When you buy any other product (Land, Houses, Cars, Pets, Shampoo, Books, Food, etc.) you can resell the item to anyone who is willing to buy your used product. Game publishers suffer from the delusion that they should be the only special little princesses who can have their cake and eat it too.

The third insult is inflicted by ourselves. Any time that we are insulted TWICE and then continue to not just take the insult, but then provide the insultor with our hard earned money, we make a mockery of our own honor. "Thank you for insisting without any evidence that I am illegally stealing your product as well as lying to my face about the purpose of DRM. Here's $60."

You see, Steam is not insulting us; Valve simply provides a service. The publishers insult us when they require us to use Steam. My problem is that Steam is being required, not that Steam is an option.

Damnit, where is the +rep button!!

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, I'd like to point out that the EULA does state that you're not allowed to re-sell the software. Since by installing the software, you agree to the EULA, you are bound by those terms.

Although I do agree its stupid. I can walk into Gamestop and see used copies of console games, and yet PC gamers can't resell their stuff :rolleyes:

False. This was proven wrong earlier in the thread. Most EULAs provide for the ability to resell the software provided every last trace is completely wiped from your computers hard-drive, and any back-up copies are destroyed.

Apologies, I must have missed it (which is embarrassing, as I read the entire thread).

EDIT: Although I now wonder if there is still... I'm hesitant to say a benefit for shutting down a second-hand software market like this. How can a company like Bethesda ensure that Skyrim is entirely removed from my system, and any backups are destroyed, unless they tie it to an account like my Steam account?

Again, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here

Are you Big Brother?

I think you'd love 1984 if you aren't.

Also EULAs in general that the end user hasn't signed, must be the most well-humped waste of time in history.

The installer or packaging will say something like "by installing this software" or "by purchasing this software" etc. "you agree to the EULA" which in 99% of the planet's countries, that [censored] doesn't fly.

Referencing the EULA is an exercise in futility.

In the United States, a EULA constitutes a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_of_adhesion#Contracts_of_adhesion. They exist to "scare" the average user into compliance with what the publisher wants. In the event the matter was actually brought up in court, the EULA would be invalidated.

Actually, the EULA is legally enforceable in the US, under certain circumstances [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA#Shrink-wrap_and_click-wrap_licenses], and depending on what line of cases the Judge will follow.

ProCD v. Zeidenberg holds that if the first time you see the EULA is during installation, hitting "I Agree" is considered accepting the contract and is legally binding [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD_v._Zeidenberg] [http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1405266.html]. On the other hand, Klocek v. Gateway, Inc holds that such contracts are not binding (source avaliable in mt_pelion's post). It will ultimately vary, but you can't just expect to get away with it.

First off. this is a great thread. Quite an interesting discussion.

Second: I don't like Steam. I find it useless. But lets not talk about the futures of Steam. I'm not that familiar with it.
My problem lies with the fact that at some point you need internet. For example multi-player and authentication.
Do you guys know just how much work it took for me to get a Steam-game to access the internet? 2 Sessions of 5 hours.
Yes. For some weird reason my computer (perhaps all computers connected to my router) has a problem playing Steam-games online. Perhaps it's my router/modem, perhaps it's my ISP. I don't know. The fact is that online gaming trough Steam is a big pain for me.
I can imagine other people have the same kind of internet connection as I do. I can also imagine not everyone of them has the skills to fix it.
Since I don't know where the problem comes from, I am also terified that if Steam (or another involved instance) updates anything related, I can start all over again with configuring.

"So don't play online, play singleplayer" I hear an imaginary voice asking.
Well, than why use Steam? Why would and should I need another program to run a game?
I also like to install my games where and how I want, but that has already been discussed.

Actually Steam was designed to make Valve a lot of money, and it's primary function is it's direct download store. The elimination of the resell market is just a side effect.

Your last point is very true. It's the developers fault that you are forced to use a third party system. As stated by many, in the long run it doesn't have a huge impact on piracy, so it's to much of a step to make. Maybe someday the devs will realize this. It should always be an option.

I agree it would be nice to pick the install locations through Steam, but I have a work around should you feel like putting a bit of effort into it. (Consisting of copy/pasting, renaming a folder, and drag&drop.)

Download then install http://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/hardlinkshellext.html.

Now got to the folder you want to move. Copy/paste it to the location you want it in. (Leave both windows open.)
Rename or delete the original folder. (I rename it to start just to make sure it works, then delete if you like.)
Now right-click (NOT LEFT!) the folder in the new location, and drag it to the original folder location. When you drop it you will be given a list of options. Select 'Drop here' then 'Junction'.

Now when you start the game, it will go to the original location, see the junction, and run the files from the new location. I use this with my SSD seeing the space is limited.

I have Steam installed to P:\Steam on an HDD yet Fallout NV plays from C:\Games\fallout new vegas on my SSD.

Actually Steam was designed as an auto-patcher for Counter-Strike to ensure that all CS players were using the same game version. It was created because whenever they released a patch for CS the game was literally unplayable for a day or so while everyone, players and server admins, had to individually download and apply the new patch.

I've read 1984, if fact George Orwell is one of my favorite authors. I holp your just joking when you asked me if I'm Big Brother. First of all I have no power, and can't spy on you so that rules me out right there. Also Big Brother and everything he stands for is PURE EVIL!
If you really want to see Big Brother just look at capital hill. (Random fact, do you know that England is using Double Think right now! They just recently passed a law that states no one is allowed to protest by the parliament building, and these people interviewed this lady and asked her "You know this is taking your freedom of speech away right?" and she seriously responded "They're doing it to preserve my freedom." They interviewed a bunch of other people and they all said the same thing. It's fricking scary.)

Oh I remember those dark, dark days...

Anyways I personally enjoy using Steam, its comfy, its cheap(er than our retailers) and it doesn't have many bugs/problems (nowadays), but I can certainly understand the disapproval of some people and not to mention the fact that some people can't get it to work or even use it.


So yeah, there are probably a couple of misconceptions about Steam but none of them change the fact that some people just don't want limitations on a product they legally purchased.

The only fair way to describe Steam is as a client that works for some people and doesn't work for others and that has numerous issues that need addressing.

It's good that the original poster is trying to address concerns but it needs to be from an objective view. For the points in the original post.

#2 if you need an internet connection at any point then you do need an internet connection to play that game, having to install, authenticate and run all needing to be done before playing can take place.
#3 I've never had Steam work in offline mode, just a raft of error messages or ignored instructions. It does work for some people and not for others, kindly realise that it doesn't work for all otherwise your attempts at clearing up misconceptions just are adding more disinformation.
#4 You install then before first run it will check for a most up to date version. No way round that. Once that has been done then you can choose to not have it kept up to date, that setting being reset is something that can be debated endlessly along with the issue of the client reconnecting to update. Having never had Steam work in offline mode I can't verify that one from personal experience.
#5 OBSE It may have been fixed, but if it needed to be made compatible then mods obviously do not work perfectly.

As a customer I've always liked how there is the argument, don't like it, don't use it. Allows you to make simple and effective choices. Steam has saved me over ￡150 at least by not buying and playing titles that require Steam so I guess there are some inadvertent advantages, the amount of hassle that it causes just doesn't make it worth the time, money or effort for me, not when I can put the disc for (for example) The Witcher in the drive, install and play without any of the other issues that I would end up running into if I had to use Steam. Knowing that I'm not likely to have those issues with its sequel makes me positive to the idea of buying that title. It's not rocket science.

Sue me later, not reading 9 pages to see who else might have brought this up:

That's not a fact. I've personally witnessed people put Steam in offline mode only to have it come back in a few days demanding you let it check for updates. Refuse, and the client won't even start. If the client won't start, no games linked to it will validate and you can't play. Period. THAT is a fact and it's undeniable.

This one reason alone is enough for me to know I NEVER want anything to do with this service. Nevermind that I've got two friends who both got perm-banned from the service over problems with bank transactions that weren't their faults. Short short version of the story, they got their money back for the failed transactions and then because the banks viewed what Valve did as "fraud in the inducement" (legal term) the banks charged back EVERY transaction they'd ever made with Valve and were going to file fraud complaints against them for it.

I find it rather amusing as well that people whine about how intrusive GFWL is but I've yet to find anyone I know personally who plays GFWL games that even has an account with the service, except one guy who created one so he could get some DLC (which he later thought was crap).

I don't know about Civilization 5, but on my copy of Fallout: New Vegas there are 6.23 gigs of files that have the extension .sid. There is a folder called Resources that has the SteamInstall_English.exe.

Just so people know if you tell it to go in offline mode and then reset your computer when it reboots it will try to go in online mode if it detects a internet connection. You have to keep that in mind. Also anybody who's had a problem with offline line mode a long time ago can't really say much, because that used to be a big problem that was fixed.

I love Steam, it's a great platform. It places all my games in one place, doesn't make me fumble around for disks, has an in-game browser and chat feature, and easily connects me with my friends. Plus they often have great deals on games. It's a great platform, but I can see why people with slower internet connections would find it annoying since so much of it relies on a good connection.

Honestly, I have a GFWL account, and it isn't intrusive at all. I tend to forget it's there. And even when I'm playing Section 8 (a GFWL game) it's not bothersome.

lol, I love that in discussions like simple acts can be described as inconvenient. Seriously, fumbling for discs? Heh ha. That's class. :woot: "Oh man, disc change. Insert disc two. Where's disc two? Ah here it... whup dropped it, got it, no whup there it goes. Damn it's fallen into a big pile of other discs, where is it? Ah here it is whup dropped it... damn I've scratched it, if only I had access to digital distribution, this nightmare of taking a disc from a case and placing it into a drive draw would be a thing of the past!"

All the other pros you mention are dandy, I get them. S'a matter of preference, though, and I think you'd agree Steam doesn't need to be a required install when you purchase a game. It should be a third-party service that's there if consumers want to use it, along with a choice of other similar clients that offer the same or similar services... bit o' choice for us, and less dictating.