I understand you're pissed off about being accused of lying, but I have to admit that I didn't believe about those ridiculously low internet speeds you have in certain parts of the States when I first heard about it either. That's something I'd expect in the jungle in Kenya or something, not in a first world country

I am surprised nobody has said this about Steam.

7. USER GENERATED INFORMATION

"User Generated Information" means any information made available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam or to Valve through your use of the Software. User Generated Information may include, but is not limited to, chat, forum posts, screen names, game selections, player performances, usage data, suggestions about Valve products or services, and error notifications. Subject to the Valve privacy policy referenced in Section 1 above, as applicable, you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.

This is from the Steam Subscriber Agreement. Basically it says you sign away your rights and steam can sell your info about what you use with Steam, it can give it away, it can sell it, it can do what ever it wants and there is not a thing you can do.

So what ever your gaming patteren is, when ever you go online, what ever your browse, or even type in thier forums can be sold to anyone they want to. All your information releating to steam, gaming habits, purchasing habits and what ever else I can't think of, as long as it releates to Steam and the steam games, can and will be given away or sold.

Don't forget the words, "BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO" means basically anything. You try and prove in a court of law what "Not Limited" means. So unless you take Steam and Valve to court, there is not a thing about your privacy can be sold off to the highest bidder.

the problem is that the US is such a big place that is really sparsely populated in places so it's just not worth it and/or physically viable to run the needed lines everywhere.

I reinstalled it five times, deleted all my data once, and tried to target little sections but eventually I just gave up on it.

When did you have this problem? Offline mode used to not work well, even for me, but now it's way more reliable. It was one of the topics that was companioned about the most, and they fixed it. Now it's not much of an issue.

I am glad, OP, that you are attempting to make this community wiser by trying to clear up misconceptions. I don't know if you succeeded or not, since I know little about Steam, but I applaud your goals.

I myself have never used Steam, but I hate the idea that I would be required to use a third-party online activation for a single-player game I bought the disk for. It's partly principle, and it's partly practicality-- I still play Civilization II, Lords of the Realm II, Lords of Magic, Magic Carpet even! Amazing games-- I paid for them all, and as long as the discs last me, I can play them whether Steam is around or not, whether I have an internet connection or not. This is what I paid for-- the ability to play my games for as long as I like. If I bought a Steam game, and 10 years down the line Steam is out of business, I might not be able to play my game. That is unacceptable to me. Sure, if the disc gets scratched or I lose it or whatever, I can't play my games, but that's my own fault-- I have no say in whether Steam goes out of business or not, or whether they will have support for Steam-only games should they go under. I bought Civilization IV BTS from Direct2Download, and I was excited by the convenience. But now I worry that if they go under, I won't be able to validate a game I purchased on a new computer. This is why I dislike the idea of a Steam-only release-- there is less security for me as a gamer; my games may become unusable through no fault of my own.

This is not to say that I am against games being released on Steam in addition to a physical release that does not require third party internet verification. I realize that many of you like Steam; no skin off my back! But if Skyrim comes out on PC as Steam-only, I'll purchase an Xbox version, put that in the attic somewhere, and get a torrent of the game for PC. I want to support Bethesda, but I do not wish to support Steam-- as consumers, we all vote with our dollars! With any luck, however, it'll come out in Steam for those who like it and as a "regular" version for those like me.

First off thank you. I'm just trying to enlighten people, since a lot of people don't know much about how Steam works.

I personally think as you do that games shouldn't have to require third party software to run. It's all a matter of principle. That being said, of all the third party systems they could choose, Steam is one of the best. I hostly don't believe they will run out of business. They are highly adaptable, and they do something that a lot of people want, which is sell direct downloads. You shouldn't have trusted direct2download at all. They don't back up your downloads, if the files become corrupted or deleted you won't be able to play the game ever. Steam is much more trustworthy.

Skyrim will come out on Steam regardless of the fact that it requires Steam, because you can already buy Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 on Steam.

I too want to support Beth & not Steam so when Beth pushes Steamworks I decline & not get the game. Steam as an option is a good thing though

Yeah, any more the question should really be "will there be a legit unSteamed PC version?"

I am pretty sure I have had steam set to offline for the past 2-3 months and only just the other day turned it to online mode to see if there were any good deals. It never required me to go online or gave me an error.

You know ToJKa's earlier comment about how in Finland 'there's hardly a place where i couldn't connect to the net via 3G cellphone network' made me laugh. When I go up to my cabin up in Finish Lapland there is no telephone land-line. Technically there's 3G connectivity, but the download speeds are diabolical. Doing anything more than trying to log in to gmail is a joke - i.e. go off and make a cup of coffee and it will still have not completed by the time you get back.

This is a first world country which pioneered mobile telecoms, but internet connectivity is still limited if you don't live in a city. Its not just the States or the Australian Outback that suffer this problem, much of the rest of rural northern Scandinavia and parts of the UK have the same issues.

I live in a town of 600 and have fiber optics. High speed is available just about everywhere, in American, not just the cites. This isn't 1990. All suburbs, and most small towns have high speed available. You truly have to go in the middle of nowhere, and I mean NOWHERE, to not have access to the internet. If you say "I don't have access to the internet because of where I live" you are lying, or you should move. It's that simple. If you really want internet, you shouldn't live where there is no internet. I understand if you can't afford high speed though, that's a whole other issue.

If there isn't a non-Steam option for purchasing Skyrim then I too will not be buying it - breaking a long, long customer relationship I've had with BGS since Arena first came out. I'd state all the various issues I have with Steam, but I think others have repeatedly expressed most of them in far a better manner.

Perhaps I'm becoming an old man but I want a game which I can play when I want, where I want, install it on what I want, and never be buggered by yet another company going under or screwing over my customer rights.

This. You've summed up my stance on Steam well. I'll also add that I use and like Steam very much, and I've got a large amount of games purchased through it. Just in the interest of fairness.

However, I also take issue to the patches, for two reasons. For starters, my old desktop computer was not very good. It barely met the minimum requirements for Oblivion when it came out. While looking around, I came across the Oldblivion mod (for those who are not aware, it ran Oblivion without DX9 features, which would improve performance on older hardware). I installed it, and used it, and Oblivion was playable for a while. And then Shivering Isles came out. Suddenly Oldblivion was broken. It wouldn't work with the new patch. The developer stated that he had no timeframe for when it would be completed, and even now, he has not released Oldblivion for the latest Oblivion patch. While there is third-party support now, up until that time, if I had purchased Oblivion through Steam, and I had uninstalled Oblivion at all, when I re-installed it would be with the latest patch, which would break support with that mod, rendering it unplayable.

Sure, maybe I shouldn't have been playing it on an older computer then, but then I look to Dwarf Fortress. A game I have actually put off updating several times. This is mainly due to mod support (those who play DF can attest that mods like Dwarf Therapist are all but essential), but also major version changes (such as the move from the last 40d version to 0.31.25). I recall right after DF2010 came out, people were having big issues with it, and were actually going back to the previous version. If I were forced to use Steam's patching service, I would be out of luck the moment I hit update. I'd never be able to get a (more) stable version back, nor would I have a more familiar version to fall back on. Sure, the mod support eventually caught up, and its more stable now (anyone else remember dwarves melting in the rain?), but until I did update, I was quite happy running the previous version with mods that worked, and my dwarves not being killed due to a glitch.

EDIT: That being said, it is nice to see some of the misconceptions cleared up. Offline mode does exist, and I had to use it on my old desktop to play several games. But I didn't like having to haul my computer into my parents room to hook it up to the internet in order to activate Half-Life 2.

You can play a Steam game, when you want, where you want, and install it on what you want. That's actually one of there selling points. The fact that you can install the game on multiple computers.

I live in south eastern Ohio. There's an area outside of Athens (About 30 minutes) that has nothing above Dial-Up, or they have to use super expensive satellite. This area is well above 600 people, but the cable/internet companies tell you if you call them, "The lines are too old and there are no future plans on replacing them."

And a lot of people don't have the luxury of just up and moving to a new place, just for internet.

That being said, I personally love Steam. I've never had any issues with it (except maybe a few years ago, but I can't remember). But I understand where people are coming from when they say they want to play their single player games they purchased as a physical copy without having Steam involved if they so choose.

Isn't having your game activated through something like Steam just a crappy way of trying to combat piracy anyways?

Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth. Why in the world should(or would for that matter) I move to a different location just because of the internet? I LIKE, no, scratch that, I LOVE where I live, it's one of the most beautiful scenic places around, with a gorgeous view of the valley below, and trees on all sides. Why would I move to a different area just because I have to put up with slow dial-up internet? Also, until a couple of years ago, the town I live near had nothing but Dial-up. Comcast and Verizon recently came in and started offering high-speed internet, but until then, everyone else was just like me now.

You see, this is another one of these posts where those who blessed by their own situation not only have no conception of how things are for others, but also outright accuse folks (un)fortunate enough to live in remote or poor areas of outright lying. The world isn't comprised of just cities, suburbs and small towns and just because some of us do live or spend part of our lives in non-urban regions does not necessarily mean its the 'middle of nowhere' either. That's a very biased attitude, along with your conviction that if you want to play Skyrim move to 'civilisation'.

We shouldn't need to have internet to be able to install, play and continue to have access to a beloved game we have on DVD.

In my experience, there are basically four reasons people get on the internet, in this order: 1. To make themselves feel good, using negative outlets (this sort of behavior is often characterized by lifting themselves up through making others feel small, and often takes form in things like: flaming, bashing people, making fun of others, being a "know-it-all" so they feel smart, etc.); 2. To make themselves feel good, using positive outlets (this sort of behavior is often characterized by a desire for validation/acceptance, and often takes form in things like: updating ones' Facebook status, offering an idea/suggestion on a forum, blogging one's opinions on the latest movies, etc.); 3. To find information (looking up things on Wikipedia, an online Dictionary, etc. or researching investments, companies, products and the like); and 4. To provide information (or even misinformation, knowingly and unknowingly-- this behavior is characterized by too many motives to go into). I could go on and on about this theory based on my experiences online, but to get back to topic: it was just nice to see someone trying to help others on these forums, rather than taking path #1.



I think we're on the same page here as far as third party software requirements go. It obviously works for some, but I'm not a fan! And as for D2D, it was an impulse buy when I was younger-- I definitely regret it. Thankfully I had the foresight to save the downloaded installers (and patches, etc.), so I don't have to worry about that, but I do worry because even though I have the files, I still have to validate with D2D online. :shrug: I just hope they're still around in 10 years when I get the urge to play some Civ IV BTS!



Good point. I only hope that they have an option agreeable for gamers like me!

No I can't...

I can't install it during the several months a year when I'm travelling overseas to the third world or working in the Lapland wilderness.
I can't install it anywhere where there isn't high speed broadband due to needing to download the Steam client, its upgrades and the default first set of patches.
I can't install it on any of my (older) gaming PC's which I deliberately keep disconnected from the net.

But I can do all three with my Oblivion DVD.

Okay. I'll bite.

Why are you even worried about video games when you are working in the wilderness and traveling in third world countries? And why hold that against Steam?

Do they advertise themselves as the DD service for the traveling philanthropist?

And why not install the games you'll be wanting to play BEFORE you leave?

Jumping to the end after reading the first couple of pages...

Dagggerfall.

Misconception: If Steam were to ever go out of business, then they will release a patch that'll unlock the activation process

No matter how many times people are "certain" this is going to happen, it isn't guaranteed in the slightest. The evidence is pretty compelling for it not being the case, actually.

1. The EULA specifically states they don't have to and makes it quite clear that your ability to play the games is completely contingent on Valve

2. There is no DMCA exemption for DRM bypassing in the event of dark servers -- It's been brought before the Library of Congress every time and not once been granted

Until I have it in writing that I will be able to play my games in the event Steam closes, I won't use it. I don't care how unlikely the event of Steam closing is -- I'm not going to touch it until then.

On the "should" side: Steam should have a feature similar to Amazon's book lending feature, where you can "lend" e-book for kindles to friends for 14 days.

When I first used Steam I hated it. I bought HL2 not knowing it required Steam. But I wanted to play that game. I brought it home and installed it only to find I needed to download steam. I was on dial up which was supposed to be about 50 MB connection. With the lousy phone lines here it generally ended up going down to 24 or so most of the time. I moderated this forum already then and had a very difficult time doing so at times. By the time a page would load so I could delete spam there would sometimes be two more pages of it to delete. It was a horror story.

Anyway, I think it took me about two days to completely get Steam downloaded at which time I only went back when I heard there was a patch for Steam or for the game. I played the whole game offline and enjoyed it very much but of course never wanted to use steam again.

The next time I got a game requiring steam was not until more recent times when my area finally had DSL available (I snagged that right up) and still it is a very slow DSL. It took me 26 hours to DL FO:NV for instance. I have completely changed my mind about Steam. It's pretty awesome in many ways. I can get to my games from any PC in the house. I don't need the disc. Getting a patch is much easier than in the past when servers would be screaming from so many trying to get them all at once. Steam is efficient.

As for not being able to play offline or being forced to install patches. It will only force you to install patches available when you first load it. Any future patches are not forced as long as you play offline. I have many neighbors who live without internet connections (or running water or electricity except generators for that matter) yet they will bring their PC out to my house or to the lodge down the highway to download and/or patch existing games. They do so, go offline and go back into the woods and never go back online again until months later when they once again come out with PC in hand. Yes, it's a hassle but it's one folks who live around here are willing to have so they can continue to live the lifestyle they do off the grid. It's just a way of life here.

I could be very wrong but I think most resistance to Steam DRM and use of it is that it screws you if you want to "share" your game with friends or brothers or sisters or if you want it for free. It prevents you from selling it to another or from buying a used one on Ebay. All of those things are and have always been against the EULA. Steam enforces it a bit better. Not that it prevents pirating completely but it slows it down a bit. Every little bit helps.

And please do regardless of if it must be authenticated on steam or not, allow me to buy a retail copy. I assure you after downloading FO:NV and it taking so long I will in the future await my physical copy so that I can install it and merely have the much quicker authentication process with steam.

As long as I have been on the internet and playing games I have never seen any form of DRM that was not complained about bitterly. Always without fail, people make threats not to buy it, claim it's intrusive, claim it causes a myriad of problems and hate it. The only way that will not happen is if games came with no protection what so ever. And to do that would be for whatever company released it to many legal problems for not taking steps to protect their IP and to risk much more than losing a few angry customers.

I promise you that no matter what protection it comes with, someone will complain. In the end, companies must try to choose the lesser of all evils.

Some games offer guest passes, which are essentially the same thing as "lending" the game to someone else. Although you can both play simultaneously which is useful for gaging (guaging?) how you like that particular game if multiplayer is a key feature.