And THAT is exactly why attributes are a bad thing that needs to go. How can you argue with a straight face that practicing picking locks, moving around hiden or firing with a bow would either help you not beeing staggered while getting hit in combat or (for security and stealth) that they should improve bow damage at all. Heck, if you wanted to be somewhat realistic you should probably be asking for Strength to improve bow damage because arm strength improves your ability to pull stronger bows which will throw arrows faster and thus do more damage.

Some people here want attributes because they affected multiple things and created some synergies between skills. But you know what? This is why I'm (and probably Bethesda too) rather want them removed : because they affected multiple things in a completely unlogical and unrealistic way and the synergies they created are completely fake.

Well fast and precise movement is synonym of agile,
having a steady hand and precise movements definitely will help in lock piking and shooting, understood of mechanic of lock relay on skill of security and intelligence
having falcon eye and understood ballistic represent marksman skill so shooting from bow also work on both parts attributes of body and skills of character, and damage will be improved from better Aim.
Having Strength to improve using of bow is also good thing, for first it allow model Long Bows and modify time for drawing arrow to maximum damage.


What kind of "completely unlogical and unrealistic way and the synergies they created are completely fake" you can provide as an example without any of way to be improved instead of be completely axed from game?

You just said it yourself. Agility means :
- Steady hand (Security)
- Precise movement (Stealth)
- Falcon eye and balistics (marksman)

Are you really trying to say that if you are good at one of those, you are good at all of them? That if you improve one you improve all?

That is not a problem of attributes themselves; in fact, this 'problem' gets worse the less attributes you have, because you group things that have nothing to do with each other in the same categories.
You are arguing specific synergies, which is a whole different matter. I always thought agility and speed aren't very well defined in TES, in most cases agility works like 'dexterity' and speed like agility. And yes, for example, strength could increase your bow damage, whereas agility/dexterity could improve your hit rate, zoom factor, whatever. If skills where affected by multiple attributes, you'd have to make even more decisions, I like that.

Your claim that affecting multiple things is "completely unlogical and unrealistisc" and all synergies are constructed is just false, sorry.

I will wait and see. I like the idea but my fears are that Characters won't feel as fleshed out and will feel similar in some ways. Walking/Running speed etc

Hit rate is out since Oblivion. Real time FPS RPG games do not mix that well with hit rolls in combat. Zoom factor is just pulling an effect out of your hat for the sake of giving something to do for the attribute. Which attribute btw? The one that improves by sneaking around or the one that improves by jumping all over the place? Seems perfectly logical right ...

At the ground level, the "big argument" for attributes seems to be that it is more difficult/less user-friendly than perks. I mean, isn't that what an extra "layer of complexity" boils down to? Making the game more complex?

And hey, that's cool. Hard games are fun games. That's why Demon's Souls was so great. And if you like the "spreadsheet" factor in modern RPGs, that's your bag. But at the end of the day, keeping in attributes as opposed to perk trees is nothing short of making the game more complex for complexity's sake. And some people like that, especially those of us that have been around since Daggerfall. But most people don't. Having attributes and perk trees, as cool as that would be for those of us that grew up on RPGs, would be a nightmare for someone new to the genre. It's possible from a technical and gameplay perspective, yes, and may even make for an amazing game for RPG veterans, but from a marketing standpoint, Bethesda would be shooting themselves in the foot. As a pure marketing decision, the removal of attributes was inevitable.
I'm among those Daggerfall veterans, and I liked attributes. But I might like perks more. There's no way to know until the games comes out. So any argument is completely moot.

As far as simplifying the game goes, as long as it doesn't go as far as Fable III (One sword and one hammer? Really?), it'll be fine. But honestly, Fable is to TES as The Fairly Oddparents is to Stephen Lawhead's "Song of Albion" trilogy. So I'm not worried about that.

Not necessarily "good", but better, yes. Agility/Dexterity is a label that can stand for several things, and you can call actions nimble or agile that seemingly have nothing to do with eath other, except that adjective - or attribute, even. You can say that picking a lock and shooting an arrow both require dexterity, although you will probably argue that they require totally different muscles for different actions. This will not change unless every muscle has its own attribute.
You could also argue that intimidating someone requires totally different abilites than complementing someone or making jokes, yet they are all grouped in one skill - because they require speechcraft. Some groups make sense, others don't, but by decreasing the amount of groups you don't fix anything, you just make matters worse.



Zoom factor pulled out of my hat? It has been in Oblivion and is a confirmed perk in Skyrim. :shrug:
Which attribute? I'd go for Dexterity.

One thing that has been bugging me a bit. Can we call these 3 "Attributes", Attributes? I mean apart from the obvious Magicka affecting spell abilities, will they affect our skills in anyway, shape or form. No. The won't affect our skills like the old Attributes did. Hence the perks. Yes they all "trickled down" to some thing but a lot of that trickling was to skills. Not just Health, Magicka and Fatigue. Also luck seems to be a gonna, unless it's a perk. I hate the name perk btw, it just sounds cheesy.

All to often i see on this forum...OH!..."I fear this". Like your saying you don't know what the [censored] bethesda is doing. They know the system better than anyone,they know about attributes better than anyone. Did we enjoy morrowind-YES,it's a classic,did most of us enjoy oblivion-YES,sold very well and was overall a good game. How do you know they haven't tried to improve what attributes did or how they affected skills better?---They could have done,and thought you know what guy's....attributes as we know them are still looking weak...what now?. Then there is those that say they are dumbing down/or taking an easier option. Really? Do you not think it's takes a litt'e more time and effort to come up with a new system?...OH...and to the guy that said about his fear because of DA 2.Those games are rushed out and don't come out every 5 years. You seem to forget also,todd/others are fans of the elder scrolls too,it's their baby. They haven't just pulled the changes out of their back-pockets,they thought about them,thought about how this ties in with that and so on. Some of you make sound like they don't give a [censored]...i think it's because your spitting the dummy out,without knowing why they are doing what they are doing.


If you have that much "fear" about what they are doing,why are you here. Yes we can have an opinion,but it's they way some of you say it....like it's the end of everything. If attributes stayed i'd still buy the game,but ( and i'm sorry ) attributes are not there as we know them for a reason,and that reason is because they are weak. And don't give me that i can't role-play rubbish. I role-play alot,and i think this new system will do it better. I like the fact bethesda has fresh idea's,because if they didn't people would moan at that too. They have spent 5 years on the game,doesn't that count for anything? Take a look at the oblivion manual,and look at attributes and the skills.In my opinion attributes had hardly had any affect at all.Why are we so attached to numbers? Especially numbers that found to be weak towards your skills.It's the skills/what we use/what we do that matter. I been through numerous times why attributes are useless or have been shown to be weak.
But it's like pissing against the wind. Spell making was another that was about numbers.Same fireball effect,different number.That's not spell making to me. I want to see that affect in my hands,visually.That's were the sense of power comes from in magic,how it looks and plays,NOT numbers.

There will be encumberance in the game,and there maybe a way to regen magicka besides perks.Though everyone bangs on about morrowind,yet that had no magicka regen. If you clearly don't trust bethesda,or fear what they do,then why show such interest?....I'll tell you why,because deep down you do trust them,and know the game will be good either way,you've seen too much good stuff already. The fact is,attributes aren't there as we know them,we have to deal with it.And remember it's done for a reason.

What are you people going on about? This is a completely different game now! It's not Morrowind, Oblivion, or Daggerfall, nothing you say is going to bring back the new system. So deal with it.

Yes half of abilities of character is relay on his natural attributes while another half on acquired skills thats is its natural modeling of an character, now they took out all natural properties of character and left only his acquired skills, if there will be no significant and detailed perk system thats will replace attributes in proper way, then half of player character representation in game become axed.

Since there is no anymore birthsigns, backgrounds, starting advantages and disadvantages, classes, we receive generic blank character at prison, I'm OK if such character will be optional as before we can create own class and such blank character can replace such option in some kind, but making generic blank character at prison as main choose without of any options looks really strange.
Attributes and classes was in TES from beginning of series, I don't think limited number of perks can properly replace fundamental basis, perk can work in conjuction with attributes and classes but not replace them completely until they are limited to 15 perks to one skill since they will add unique features mostly what have level trees, or number of perks will be increased really represent our character via starting traits-perks (birthsigns, advantages and disadvantages) predefined sets of perks (backgrounds, classes) and basis perks from nebulas what represent three main way of character development (The Mage, The Warrior, The Thief) what will included http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1181187-perktributes/ (mix of perks and attributes have 100 level stages, rise automatically with leveling of skills from main tree and level of character have racial variability, but all levels are have visible changes on gameplay on certain stage for example at level 10 of Strength of Warrior perktribute tree character will receive bonus to weapon damage), such things as Perktributes can be done with mods,
but starting traits as birthsigns, advantages and disadvantages predefined sets of perks (backgrounds, classes) can be done by devs, there is nothing hard in such to such feature, not all like play as blank character, if they fear of casuals who will take wrong combination of race class and starting traits and then will cry at forums, make chose of starting traits available in hardcoe mod or be optional as before was class creator.

I'm actually pro attributes being taken out, the system was hugely flawed in OB - the multipliers were one of the most broken systems in the game. The only thing I am now worried about is how Luck, Encumbrance and Speed will be implemented into the game. As perks govern only specific skills - which skills will these perks come under?

In Morrowind and Oblivion the attribute leveling system was the main driver of player behaviour.
Especially in Oblivion where scaled leveling screwed you if you failed to level efficiently. The new system is designed to let you use which skills you want and get better at those skills, only breaking the flow of your gameplay upon leveling and then you make 2 choices. Between, Health, Magicka and Stamina, and then choose a perk.

The old system was very cumbersome on a player that was starting the game and was driving your behaviour, now you get to play the game how you want.

Can someone please point me to a link that quotes Bethesda that the Attributes are still in the game but just hidden from the player?

This has been said many times but I have not seen the proof for this.

My primary concern as a moder will be how hard it will be to get to the data such as speed, agility, strength... so on...

Thanks.

Well there is no such link it just speculation, Todd say thats attributes was in game at some stage BUT then was axed, so thats mean most of game variables thats was tied to attributes still in game but hidden from player UI like GMST and global variables before, such variables hardly will become total hardcoded or removed from game since thats make settings much less adjustable what inappropriate at development stage when need adjust such changes sometimes on fly in game via console when testing, also there is an speculations thats if perks will replace work of attributes (according to words of devs again) then they also work with certain variables just adjunct them in certain range controlled by perk for actor with such perk.
Oh well I even have strange feeling thats they hide S.P.E.C.I.A.L. from our sight in such manner :teehee:

I much prefer the new system. :spotted owl:

Pretty much this. We're not asking for blind faith, but please don't go around saying it will doom the series. What we're saying is not that we know it will rock. We just have faith that it has potential.
Also, I know a lot of you are attached to attributes as means of making your character, but for THIS GAME, they're not in. deal with it.
And if you rant about it after release, then we're going to understand, as you will have tried it and seen with your own eyes what it does. Until then, most of what we see here, FROM BOTH SIDES, is SPECULATION. Some people are giving out complete reviews of the new system without having tried it. You guys are becoming worse than IGN for [censored]'s sake

I swear if Todd Howard declared Parrots were now to be called Dodos, some of you guys would be on here saying how wonderful it is that Dodos are no longer extinct :tongue:

Attributes have so not been streamlined into three. They have been removed along with the entire system that fed skill increase into attribute increases. The Health, Mana and Stamina Status bars have always been in the TES games and they will serve exactly the same purpose in Skyrim. The only difference is that maximum levels of Health, Mana and Stamina are no longer partially derived from Attributes...because Attributes have been removed!

Personally, I really liked TES' take on Attributes in that changes to your Attributes were governed by your actions. This was very much in keeping with the Skill system, pretty much unique to TES and had the potential to be a very natural system where you could just play how you wanted to play and let the Attributes and Skills take care of themselves. I'm disappointed in the changes because Bethesda are moving away from something that made TES different towards a somewhat more conventional perk/talent tree system that you can find in any number of other mmorpgs and rpgs.

I won't pretend that the Attribute system didn't have problems but to a large extent I think Attributes have become a victim of the way they were implemented in Oblivion. For PC users things like +5 Attribute grinding were solved by mods which only served to highlight the flaws in Bethesda's original design. It's a bit of twisted logic, saying that we should trust Bethesda's decision to axe Attributes when they were the ones who made a mess of the system in the first place!

As I see it there were three main problems associated with Attributes in Oblivion:

1) +5 Attribute Grinding: This is really a Class problem as much as an Attribute problem. Removing the class system already removed the possibility of Attribute grinding since there would no longer be any Minor Skills to grind.

2) All Attributes could be maxed out: I think removing classes probably solves this problem as well because you can no longer gain +15 Attributes per level. Even if that's not the case the problem can be solved by introducing an Attribute Gain cap similar to the Perk cap at level 50.

3) Attributes and Skills were not linked properly: This is the most difficult problem to solve because with fewer Skills it becomes harder support each Attribute properly. It also leads to Skills feeding Attributes in ways which make no sense (eg Light Armor increases Speed. Really?). A big improvement could have been made by having Skills linked to multiple Attributes. For instance Mages don't necessarily want to specialise in every spell school so each spell Skill should raise both Intelligence and Willpower to some degree. One-shot spell schools (eg Conjuration, Alteration) might focus more on Intelligence while chain-cast spell schools (eg Destruction, Restoration) might focus more on Willpower.
I would also have been open to the idea that Speed and Personality should simply be removed as Attributes because they don't really offer anything that couldn't be replaced with the Skills Athletics and Speechcraft.

Anyway, that's my take on things...sorry if it sounds negative in places, I am looking forward to Skyrim really :biggrin:

I don't see the point of this thread. It's the same as all the others, and we're not gonna settle anything. OP says he wants to have an "intelligent" discussion on attributes (as if the hundreds of arguments prior to this thread were the products of babbling idiots), and then goes on to ridicule the fans of attributes.

That's what this, and every other attribute, thread are. Any time you talk about what makes a game "good" or "bad," it is a subjective opinion. The difference between ours and Bethesda's, is that they have played the game and we haven't. I feel that it is foolish to believe that the people at Bethesda don't have as much love for this series as the rest of us. For many of them, this is their baby, their brainchild. I don't believe that somebody said, "Let's get rid of attributes!" and all 100-ish of the people working there agreed. They probably had lengthy "discussions" about this. Now, of course, they want the game to be more "mainstream." Why wouldn't they want more people to play a game that they pour their heart and soul into? Bethesda is going to change things, they always do. Sometimes it is great, other times not so great. They learn from their mistakes and move on. Removing attributes could be the worst idea ever, or it could be that important innovation that allows developers to do things they couldn't before; or anywhere inbetween. Hopefully, E3 will shed more light on this topic.

E3 shed more light on Radiant AI or leveling in Oblivion?
Before we can play the game we cant be sure about their decisions, I agree TES is their brainchild, but we see they teach their child to something good thing but in wrong way and then scold it like chide was guilty in their wrongs and at next time forbidden to do such thing at all for their child.
What wrong if community can make some brainstorming of problem and give some advice since we all end users of their products.

So which attribute does stealth affect or vice versa? Not complaining, just curious. Intelligence would be my best guess.

\
agility did but now its left to the player to imagine why his/her characters sneak skill is the way it is, not because in the game the characters light and nimble, but because the Skill says so yeah....innovation and streamlining at its best.

Like personality, doesn't matter what I think about my character, its not reflected in game, Im good in mercentile and speech not because my charaters a likable sneak, or exceptionally charismatic or even quirky, its because his "skill" says so.


lawl :lmao:


mmk I guess If I put the UESP tag on my Post then people will notice im not talking out my ass

Stealth can work on three attributes
Agility since need to be agile to move swift without interaction to much with environment, in such case agility applied to beast thats can sneak around
Intelligence can also since character need to be intelligence to anolyze environment for better hide in shadows, understand routes of guard and make map of theri movements in mind
Personality since stealth character can be unseen in crowd, has elusive entity and clear from witness mind fast enough, so stealth can work on public places also, thats fit greatly for sneaking characters since Mercantile, Speechcraft and illusion also depend on personality.