Clearing some misunderstandings(Attributes) : V - Skyrim

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:40 am

\
agility did but now its left to the player to imagine why his/her characters sneak skill is the way it is, not because in the game the characters light and nimble, but because the Skill says so yeah....innovation and streamlining at its best.

Like personality, doesn't matter what I think about my character, its not reflected in game, Im good in mercentile and speech not because my charaters a likable sneak, or exceptionally charismatic or even quirky, its because his "skill" says so.

What if my character is sneaky because he is smart, or perceptive. I don't have to be "Agile" to be sneaky. I can sneak up on people in broad daylight, because I know how to stay out of their line of sight. I could find an excellent hiding spot on my marks route and jump him as he passes. I don't have to be agile for either of those, yet I am still "sneaky". Why should I be forced to be agile, just to be sneaky.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:37 am

Their were two things that they could've done with Attributes. Get rid of the Governed skill part and simplify them so that they only did one thing like Strength for Encumberence Intelligence for Magicka but only 1 point instead of 10, etc or get rid of the attributes and just go with Health, Magicka, Stamina and perks. They went with the latter which was the correct choice.

Attributes in Oblivion were really bad and they were also bad in Morrowind too. Strength affects weapon damage and encumberence well we can get rid of that and just transfer it to a perk/skill. Same for intelligence (Which does not make you smarter it only increases your magicka), Endurance, etc. Also in Oblivion it forced you to use minor skills that you don't want to use like Hand To Hand just to get a +5. My character at level 15 in Oblivion is pretty powerful with 100 Strength, 100 Endurance, 100 Speed but I didn't want to do that role playing wise as my character is suppose to be a battle mage. The only reason I had to do that was for the attributes because if I didn't do that then my character would be weaker thus making the game harder then it should be. You could blame that on Oblivion but I don't I blame Attributes for that problem. Skills should always be more important then Attributes and in Skyrim that will be the case.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:59 am

\
agility did but now its left to the player to imagine why his/her characters sneak skill is the way it is, not because in the game the characters light and nimble, but because the Skill says so yeah....innovation and streamlining at its best.

Like personality, doesn't matter what I think about my character, its not reflected in game, Im good in mercentile and speech not because my charaters a likable sneak, or exceptionally charismatic or even quirky, its because his "skill" says so.

lawl :lmao:

Whaaat I think you have it backwards. In Oblivion your sneak skill affected Agility, not the other way around. Maybe you decided to use sneak a lot because you initially started with a high agility stat, but guess what, your Agility stat had basically no real influence on your ability to sneak! Agility did three things:

- Added into your fatigue.
- Increase bow damage (not sneak ability).
- Makes you more steady in combat.

All of these things are redundant, and not one of them specifically has to do with sneaking.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:13 am

Oh alright I'll bite.

A lot of people will bring up what attributes *were* in Oblivion and not what they could be in Skyrim. So condensing them to Health/Magicka/Stamina would make a little since if all they affected were those bars. By the way, H/M/S are not attributes, they are tank bars; Something that if you run out of you die, can't fight, or can't use magic.

So what attributes could have been is something that distinguished the races that no perk could do. Strength for general melee damage, Willpower for general magic resistence, Intelligence for general magick attack bonus. etc.. Now, because we all can get the same perks, there is no distinction between two races, male or female in the game if same skills/perks are chosen.
However, with attributes, the starting values are different for each race and two different races would have different melee damage values even if they used the same equipment and had the same skills.

So I understand the case that people would abuse attribues as they were able to raise them all to 100. So the fix would be to make attributes the Holy Grail and you could only raise one attribute once every 5 or 10 levels or so. Or maybe not at all.

A level 1 Nord with a mace should be able hit harder than a level 1 Elf with a mace because the Nord has more innate strength. A level 10 Breton should be able to do a bit more damage with a fire spell then a level 10 Nord of the same skill/perk H/M/S because the Breton intellegence is higher.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:09 am

OP

thank you for making the post I just had no energy to write

I love you :wub:

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:36 am

Oh alright I'll bite.

A lot of people will bring up what attributes *were* in Oblivion and not what they could be in Skyrim. So condensing them to Health/Magicka/Stamina would make a little since if all they affected were those bars. By the way, H/M/S are not attributes, they are tank bars; Something that if you run out of you die, can't fight, or can't use magic.

So what attributes could have been is something that distinguished the races that no perk could do. Strength for general melee damage, Willpower for general magic resistence, Intelligence for general magick attack bonus. etc.. Now, because we all can get the same perks, there is no distinction between two races, male or female in the game if same skills/perks are chosen.
However, with attributes, the starting values are different for each race and two different races would have different melee damage values even if they used the same equipment and had the same skills.

So I understand the case that people would abuse attribues as they were and raise them all to 100. So the fix would be to make attributes the Holy Grail and you could only raise one attribute once every 5 or 10 levels or so. Or maybe not at all.

A level 1 Nord with a mace should be able hit harder than a level 1 Elf with a mace because the Nord has more innate strength. A level 10 Breton should be able to do a bit more damage with a fire spell then a level 10 Nord of the same skill/perk H/M/S because the Breton intellegence is higher.

Under Oblivions system they were about equal with Attributes and some skills forging a slight difference. In Skyrim the skills that the specifc race is proficient in from the past games will probably have a higher starting bonus. The Breton will probably start out with higher Restoration then say an Imperial. In Oblivion's system the 10 races would be about equal at level 10 because of Attributes. In Skyrim's system I'm thinking it'll be a little bit different. You still could have all 10 races be kinda equal but the starting bonuses to specific skills and the fact that you get a higher leveling bonus by using a specific skill will probably mean this time around that the 10 races will be different then they were in Oblivion.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:02 am

Oh alright I'll bite.

A lot of people will bring up what attributes *were* in Oblivion and not what they could be in Skyrim. So condensing them to Health/Magicka/Stamina would make a little since if all they affected were those bars. By the way, H/M/S are not attributes, they are tank bars; Something that if you run out of you die, can't fight, or can't use magic.

So what attributes could have been is something that distinguished the races that no perk could do. Strength for general melee damage, Willpower for general magic resistence, Intelligence for general magick attack bonus. etc.. Now, because we all can get the same perks, there is no distinction between two races, male or female in the game if same skills/perks are chosen.
However, with attributes, the starting values are different for each race and two different races would have different melee damage values even if they used the same equipment and had the same skills.

So I understand the case that people would abuse attribues as they were and raise them all to 100. So the fix would be to make attributes the Holy Grail and you could only raise one attribute once every 5 or 10 levels or so. Or maybe not at all.

A level 1 Nord with a mace should be able hit harder than a level 1 Elf with a mace because the Nord has more innate strength. A level 10 Breton should be able to do a bit more damage with a fire spell then a level 10 Nord of the same skill/perk H/M/S because the Breton intellegence is higher.

The races all have different http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races as well. Notice how in Oblivion the Nord had bonuses in both blunt and blade, while the bosmer didn't have any melee bonuses? And they can easily make the skill differences even bigger. Plus they've specifically said that they want each race to feel different, which makes me think the racial abilities will be much more useful this time around. The simple fact is attributes haven't been the only thing differentiating the races since daggerfall I believe.

edit: :ninja:

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:16 am

Whaaat I think you have it backwards. In Oblivion your sneak skill affected Agility, not the other way around. Maybe you decided to use sneak a lot because you initially started with a high agility stat, but guess what, your Agility stat had basically no real influence on your ability to sneak! Agility did three things:

- Added into your fatigue.
- Increase bow damage (not sneak ability).
- Makes you more steady in combat.

All of these things are redundant, and not one of them specifically has to do with sneaking.

Thats because devs implement sneak not very well, sometimes in absurd way like weight of boots has impact on sneak while weight of all other equipment is not, happy sneaking around in your fullplate steel armor with thous claymore man.
SDR - Sneaking Detection Recalibrated
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385
Example of mod thats improve sneak system with many details, and there others also they all change sneaking, but I admire Oblivion has some great improvements in stealth over Morrowind, but not better then in other games with stealth.
Improvement of attributes&skills will work much better then axing attributes completely.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:07 pm

Thats because devs implement sneak not very well, sometimes in absurd way like weight of boots has impact on sneak while weight of all other equipment is not, happy sneaking around in your fullplate steel armor with thous claymore man.
SDR - Sneaking Detection Recalibrated
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385
Example of mod thats improve sneak system with many details, and there others also they all change sneaking, but I admire Oblivion has some great improvements in stealth over Morrowind, but not better then in other games with stealth.
Improvement of attributes&skills will work much better then axing attributes completely.

Fallout 3 made great improvements with Stealth from what Oblivion had so I'm expecting Skyrim to have even more improvements on Stealth then what Fallout 3 had.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:24 am

The races all have different http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races as well. Notice how in Oblivion the Nord had bonuses in both blunt and blade, while the bosmer didn't have any melee bonuses? And they can easily make the skill differences even bigger. Plus they've specifically said that they want each race to feel different, which makes me think the racial abilities will be much more useful this time around. The simple fact is attributes haven't been the only thing differentiating the races since daggerfall I believe.

edit: :ninja:

Different starting skill bonuses per race would appease my concerns quite a bit. Maybe along with race specific perks, we can all get along :happy:

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:34 am

Different starting skill bonuses per race would appease my concerns quite a bit. Maybe along with race specific perks, we can all get along :happy:

There's already different starting skill levels per race in Morrowind and Oblivion. What makes you think there won't be none in Skyrim?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:28 am

There's already different starting skill levels per race in Morrowind and Oblivion. What makes you think there won't be none in Skyrim?

With all the changes, I am not sure what will stay and what will go. But I am sure I can manage to be optimistic about this one.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:54 am

Oh alright I'll bite.

A lot of people will bring up what attributes *were* in Oblivion and not what they could be in Skyrim. So condensing them to Health/Magicka/Stamina would make a little since if all they affected were those bars. By the way, H/M/S are not attributes, they are tank bars; Something that if you run out of you die, can't fight, or can't use magic.

So what attributes could have been is something that distinguished the races that no perk could do. Strength for general melee damage, Willpower for general magic resistence, Intelligence for general magick attack bonus. etc.. Now, because we all can get the same perks, there is no distinction between two races, male or female in the game if same skills/perks are chosen.
However, with attributes, the starting values are different for each race and two different races would have different melee damage values even if they used the same equipment and had the same skills.

So I understand the case that people would abuse attribues as they were able to raise them all to 100. So the fix would be to make attributes the Holy Grail and you could only raise one attribute once every 5 or 10 levels or so. Or maybe not at all.

A level 1 Nord with a mace should be able hit harder than a level 1 Elf with a mace because the Nord has more innate strength. A level 10 Breton should be able to do a bit more damage with a fire spell then a level 10 Nord of the same skill/perk H/M/S because the Breton intellegence is higher.

Traditionally H/M/S isn't, but we don't know the extent of these "attributes" as of right now. I wouldn't rule anything out yet. We don't the extent of the perks yet. Todd stated that the perks are going to be done different from fallout 3 in a interview.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:20 pm

Improvement of attributes&skills will work much better then axing attributes completely.

How? What exactly would agility add that sneak doesn't already cover? You can stay in the shadows better, but don't try to move or you'll trip over your feet? I don't see the point of having to raise two stats to sneak effectively. If I'm good at sneaking around undetected, then it makes sense that I should be pretty agile. I can't imagine someone who can sneak very well (100 skill level) but is somehow also extremely clumsy (30 agility).

I admire Oblivion has some great improvements in stealth over Morrowind, but not better then in other games with stealth.

Well, the only games with proper stealth systems that I can think of (the Thief series is the first that comes to mind) don't have any in-your-face numerical stats telling you how good you are at sneaking, let alone two. I don't think the skill-less Thief system would work in an RPG, but I don't see the point of having two different stats that affect the same thing. It doesn't dumb down a game to get rid of pointless redundancies.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:35 am

But I only leveled my character's intelligence to make him smarter, not for magic!

Even though my character is as intelligent as I make him, this is DESTROYING SKYRIM AS AN RPG!

:D

Death to the attributes! All hail the perks!

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:29 am

:D

Death to the attributes! All hail the perks!

Hail perks, hail perks

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:49 am

Anything is better than the system they had in the past, so I am looking forward to the changes. The whole +2/+5 modifier system really bothered me to the point where I initially had to put Oblivion away for a year before trying it again. A swordsman who gets small experience gains for leveling up hand-to-hand makes a lot more sense, than a swordsman who needs to level up hand-to-hand (in a small window of time) to maximize his ability with the sword.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:05 am

The more I hear about the new system the less apprehensive I am

The more I see these blanket regurgitations of Beth talking points the more apprehensive I am. Not sure why there is such a full court press in support of what looks to be nothing more than a company trying to spin a poor design decision into something good.

1. No chasing after +5s at level up
2. No more having to raise inappropriate skills eg having to raise magic skills for a warrior to be determined

As has been repeated ad nauseam, these are critiques of poor system design, not the system itself.

3. Wide range of perks allowing for more customisation eg rather than high personality and speechcraft have high speechcraft and perks that determine what types of situation your character excels in

This is an argument for the addition of a perk tech tree for unlocking skills and abilities, not the exclusion of an attributes system.

4. Getting rid of redundent complexity. Some people seem to love complexity for its own sake. I feel game mechanics should always be kept as simple as required

"Reduntent" [sic] is repeating a talking point that have already been pointed out to be false. Unfortunately, simplification at the expense of realism is a poor game mechanic.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:05 am

:D

Death to the attributes! All hail the perks!

HAIL :foodndrink:

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:38 pm

But I only leveled my character's intelligence to make him smarter, not for magic!

Even though my character is as intelligent as I make him, this is DESTROYING SKYRIM AS AN RPG!

It us not rp is in the mind believe your character is getting smarter through in game choices and discussion within your own mind will define your characters intellect far greater that wasting ur stat points on intell if you got 'no' benefits for the magic you gain. Also feel this, "I hate intelligence governing magica I want to role play a character that can cast naturally and blast out magic from emotional out bursts but I want them to feel awkward and unsifisticated so high intelligence never fits" it's all how you play the game...

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:13 am

\
agility did but now its left to the player to imagine why his/her characters sneak skill is the way it is, not because in the game the characters light and nimble, but because the Skill says so yeah....innovation and streamlining at its best.

Like personality, doesn't matter what I think about my character, its not reflected in game, Im good in mercentile and speech not because my charaters a likable sneak, or exceptionally charismatic or even quirky, its because his "skill" says so.

lawl :lmao:

mmk I guess If I put the UESP tag on my Post then people will notice im not talking out my ass

What's the bloody difference between having a high stealth skill, and having a high stealth skill with high agility for extra bonus, apart from the bonus part?

Why having high skill by itself wouldn't mean that your character is light and nimble?

How is it any different being a better talker than... being a better talker by Personality?

How is it any different than having 50 on Intelligence than having 100 Magicka? Oh, because "he isn't smart just because of magic"? Well the game simply doesn't care, because Intelligence mainly governs magicka supply, and a small bit on some skills, but those are barely noticeable.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:39 am

The more I see these blanket regurgitations of Beth talking points the more apprehensive I am. Not sure why there is such a full court press in support of what looks to be nothing more than a company trying to spin a poor design decision into something good.

As has been repeated ad nauseam, these are critiques of poor system design, not the system itself.

This is an argument for the addition of a perk tech tree for unlocking skills and abilities, not the exclusion of an attributes system.

"Reduntent" [sic] is repeating a talking point that have already been pointed out to be false. Unfortunately, simplification at the expense of realism is a poor game mechanic.

Its certainly been repeated ad nauseum. Just not very convincingly IMO. If the systems designed poorly you redesign it which is what Bethesda have done.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:04 am

"Reduntent" [sic] is repeating a talking point that have already been pointed out to be false. Unfortunately, simplification at the expense of realism is a poor game mechanic.

Funny, how you say that its been pointed out to be false. Who pointed it out? You?

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:36 pm

Oh, I see the discussion has reached the argument from redundancy again. What a shocker.

Hail perks, hail perks

Yeah, here is your http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/6686/tiapft.jpg. You just gotta pray hard enough.

It bothers me a bit that everyone thinks of perks as Beth's great new invention, although they just copied something that RPGs had for decades and they could have had since TES I.
You know what I think would have been innovative on Beth's part? Removing Health and Magicka (yeah yeah, not a first one either, but rare). Those are the really unrealistic 'attributes', yet they axed all the other ones.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:06 am

"Reduntent" [sic] is repeating a talking point that have already been pointed out to be false. Unfortunately, simplification at the expense of realism is a poor game mechanic.

How are attributes not redundant? Lets go through it. Redundant. Not Redundant. Debatable.

Agility
- Affects your total Fatigue - Just let me increase my Stamina.
- Damage dealt by ranged weapons - I have an archery skill for a reason.
- Steadiness in combat - Shouldn't a skilled swordsman be able to maneuver effectively in combat?
Endurance
- Affects your total Fatigue - Just let me increase my Stamina.
- Affects your starting Health - Let the races have different starting health, magicka, and stamina
- Gives you more Health when you level up - Just let me increase my Health.
Intelligence
- Affects your total Magicka - Just let me increase my Magicka
Luck
- Modifies every skill slightly for formulas
Personality
- Affects your ability to gain information from NPCs - I have a speechcraft skill for a reason.
- Lets you get better prices - I have a mercantile skill for a reason, or at least mercantile perks in speechcraft
- Makes it less likely for aggressive enemies to attack you - Why can't this be handled by speechcraft?
Speed
- Affects how fast you move - this used to be very redundant with athletics, but now it's at least slightly redundant with the ability to sprint and increase my stamina to sprint longer.
Strength
- Affects your total encumberance - This could just as well be handled by stamina
- Affects your total Fatigue - Just let me increase my Stamina.
- Increases melee weapon damage - Can't my weapon skills do this?
Willpower
- Affects your total Fatigue - Just let me increase my Stamina.
- Affects magicka regen rate - Not quite sure how this will be handled

That's everything I believe. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Attributes