Whoa.. I just had a flashback. :wacko:

And I agree 100%!

I wouldn't say trainers were fixed in Oblivion, as it still made up half of the leveling. I certainly don't want to remove features, but I feel trainers were still too important. Doing quests for the trainers would be incredible, imagine having to chuck wood for your martial arts trainer so your Hand-2-Hand skill will increase.
That would be so much more fun than just exchanging gold, and you would actually DO something to level.

I'm not sure that Trainers will be in Skyrim due to the way leveling is now done. I'm hoping that they are in but I'm not optimistic.

As I have said a few posts ago, this will never happen just because of the nature of the leveling. You train skills by doing them, so if there are attributes you should be able to raise them too by doing certain actions that has something to do with the attribute.

But apparently there are still 3 attributes!

Which you raise at every level. They're not static.

As I understand it they are not raised by your character's actions but by choosing one each level. Not sure they have confirmed that yet one way or the other.

:lmao:

Ever heard of Fallout 3?

Oblivion is not good example of improved Attribute system, even declared in previous games features was not implemented in Oblivion, but because of modding flexibility with OBSE attributes work can be expanded furtherer and improved.

increase rate of throwing weapons,
decrease time to draw of short bows,
decrease probability of trigger traps,
increase time for pickpocketing (so we cant see target inventory unlimited time),
involved in modeling of stealth checks.


Increase resistance to normal weapon damage,
increase disease resistance,
better poisons resistance,
Health regeneration outside of combat,
increase Health regeneration,
allow Health regeneration in combat,
increase Fatigue regeneration,
chance resist stagger and recoil on enemy strike



decrease spell costs or increase Magicka multiplier,
Intelligence is directly linked to the rate at which you gain new skills what is Intelligence based,
as you gain more Intelligence you will be able to train more times every level, and pay less to do so,
allows you to gain more skill points from Skill-Books at higher amounts of Intelligence,
can add additional lines to dialogues.
involved in disarm trap checks and lock picking, since need understand how work such mechanism not just know how to disarm or lock pick them
can allow mark more patrolling NPC and show their route on map when PC trespass somewhere or stalk the prey


probability to find better loot (leveled containers can has items of higher levels) and percentage of such possibility,
during fast travel character can stumble on generated treasure and less encounter hostile enemies,
be ambushed during rest, be pickpocket for some amount of gold, catch disease,
found an higher leveled item in merchant store,
take in account during skill checks randomly increase them,
increase amount of pickpocket gold thats player can steal.


increased initial disposition with NPCs,
add charming options to dialogues,
increase speechcraft skill during checks,
can work together with class clothes,
decrease aggressively of certain enemy groups and types,
reduce chances of fails during convincing with speechcraft.
work as part of Public Stealth.



increase character speed,
increase chance resist stagger and recoil on enemy strike,
increase chance make enemy stagger and recoil in combat,
increase Sprint speed,
allow regeneration of fatigue when running (not sprinting),
decrease fatigue usage for sprinting,
allow swim faster,
allow attack while jumping,
suffer less fatigue loss for jumps,
can dodge in combat.


increase weapon damage,
decrease speed penalty from equipped armor and weapons,
increase speed of equipped heavy weapons in combat,
increase shooting distance for throwing weapon or decrease time to draw for long bows,
can increase chance of using intimidating in dialogue,
can be useful for Lock Bash,
can affect probability of stagger and recoil during combat


better magic resistance,
allow Magicka regeneration outside of combat,
increase Magicka regeneration,
allow Magicka regeneration in combat,
increase Fatigue regeneration

And thats only beneficial features what can be handled by Attributes and can be added by perks if devs will not to lazy and actually will try make actual replace of attributes, but attributes work in both sides having attribute below average will add penalty, poisons decease and curses actually will make sense, having zero in attribute will mean Dead for character.
Attribute chart from Daggerfall
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Attributes
Having submissive willpower will increase work of enemy illusion skills on actor, add magic weakness, having sickly endurance make actor susceptible deceases what will have increased duration and magnitude on him, having pathetic Strength will decrease lifting and carrying capacity as well as slowing strikes of heavy weapons, having vegetable-like intelligence will increase spell backfire or decrease spell effectiveness as well will make NPC cheat player for example by increasing cost of service, having cursed Luck thats always play Vanilla Oblivion without leveling Overhaul mod :teehee:

For second, nice if they will reduce rate of gaining new attribute points so we will receive increase at character level up or certain levels of skills for govern path nebula (The Thief, The Warrior, The Mage) what will contain attributes as perks, such perktributes can have smaller step in leveling tree then 100 but all stages will add new feature or levelup previous one from described from above.

Attributes represent innate abilities of actor while skill represent acquired skills, since perks based on skills they also acquired mostly until there will be starting traits.
Attributes grown in much slower rate then skill but they half part of Mastery only having both actor can become actual master.

Unless you took the "Oblivion with guns" thing way too seriously, it doesn't count.

Fallout also uses traditional XP system.

What happened to willpower, agility, speed, personality, and luck?

Suppose increased speed is now a perk. Since Todd repeatedly tells us that perks involve making permanent choices, that means that increasing my character's speed necessarily means sacrificing something else. That's bollucks. I should have the choice to increase my speed independent of whatever else happens. I have yet to see a single person address this very obvious flaw.

Why?

Even with an attribute system you had to sacrifice other attributes to put points on Speed.

Because if I put the effort into something, I deserve to be rewarded.

If I'm good at one thing, why can't I be good at something else? I'm still waiting for the answer.

EDIT: Not true. By leveling more times I could increase more attributes.

It's not a flaw it's a game design decision. Speed will probably have a set value as to how fast you can run and Sprinting will allow you to run faster at the expense of draining fatigue.

So finally we've gotten you and you ilk to admit that we are, indeed, LOSING complexity, such as a changeable run speed.

I don't see how this is a flaw. This creates customization and unique characters. For some, running fast will be very important; for others, it won't. Now you have to decide. You can't be all things in this game.

You can still be good at something else since you'll have almost 50 perks by the end of the game
Hopefully you won't be able to be good at everything anymore and character development will be more varied and involve more decisions than Oblivion

And we are getting a lot of complexity by the fact you got to pick 50 different perks from the full list of perks existing making you have to think hard toward the end on which perk you'll take and which you'll pass up because you are nearly on your last ones.

Althought the effort is louvable, the result is the same as other treads.

There s no attribute anymore.
Health is not an atribute,
Magica is not an attribute,
Stamina is NOT an atribute,

all those are informations, consequences of pure or a mescle of attributes like Strenght, constitution, speed, endurance and the like.

All those changes have been made for various purposes:

Make the gameplay less costly to implement,
Please people would couldn t understand what RPG is about and using this excuse to make the final leap toward Action game.

The consequences are:
Burrying once and for all RPG,
Less choice on what you will be world wise, and concentrating around combat alone,

I won t enter on the merit of each i already explained each one of them many times, the new limitations this model impose on the player for the sake of saving time and money on developping the game.
Basicly the company has prefered to mainstream the game to the final frontier (FPS attributes: Health and Stamina, magika is necessary for magic) to correct their past mistakes the right way.

Skyrim will be, no, IS, Dark Messiah on sandbox version. Many will love this FO3 sword and spell. Especially those who don t know what RPG is about (or suffer from the MATRIX SYNDROME), and which, like Todd, think RPG is anything that imporsonate someone your not, which is basicly the definition of any game.

Sad times.

What I choose to be should be limited by priorities and time spent, not some completely artificial, externally imposed arbitrary restrictions. Talk about breaking immersion.

Plus, even the way they've done the perk exclusion makes no [censored] sense. If I learn lots about swords, that means I can't learn anything about axes? That makes zero sense. If there are restrictions at all, they should be on things that AREN'T related. So, for example, learning about swords and axes means I can't learn magic. That would make at least SOME sense.

^^^
you can spread out your perks, and you will be able max out every skill that you can use. The perks are there to help you focus on the main skills you like to use




Its still too early to say that we are losing complexity until we see and play the game. Complexity also doesn't always mean good, and plus you argue is assuming that perks are a simple function. Yes, maybe we are losing complexity, but as long as the gameplay is better, nobody will care.

Nobody cares that Call of Duty is a piece of trash either. People still keep buying it by the droves every year. Perhaps you should elevate yourself above the idiot masses.

I'm sorry but this doom and gloom is so over the top that its ridiculous and border-line trolling.

That is completely opinion, the people think that it is good so they buy and play. Just because you think its crap doesn't mean it is, sorry but you are in the minority. They don't ignore it, they legitimately think its good. I personally like playing black ops

i believe 280 was the number confirmed... and in one of the more recent interviews Todd said they were toying with more, so there may even be more than that by release :hubbahubba: