As far as I can see -- which isn't very far, because none of us have played the game yet, and thus, don't know exactly how the perk system works or how deep it is -- But as far as I can see, the layer of pure "spreadsheety" complexity is completely replaced, or has the potential to be completely replaced, by perks. To my understanding, any effect that attributes gave is now an effect from a perk, so there is just as much room for depth and complexity in character development. It'll just be effect-by-effect instead of point-by-point (although it may end up just adding points anyway: "Superhuman Endurance: +5 to Fatigue, +5 to health, +5 to health gain upon next level up").

And, as I have posted before, I'd rather attributes remained hidden. If I go out and exercise, I can't see how much effect my exercising is having by looking in my notebook. I have to go try and lift something heavy. This seems to be the goal with the new character development system.

Yannow, repeating Todd's catch-phrase isn't exactly going to change minds on the issue.

:facepalm:




some people are using the Intelligence = Magicka, um did it not also matter for SECURITY? CONJURATION? ALCHEMY AND ENCHANTING? what about personality thats an attribute, what defines my character then? hmm? its the people who don't bother to look or are so lulled to Todds PR talk that don't address these factors and claim that those thinking otherwise are irrational idiots.

THIS, is wisdom right there my friend. Also, the fact that we could choose them made little sense to me. How come I could become suddenly stronger, by studying and casting spells all day? That's what I did in real life with games and it only got me fat and weak. And I WANTED to be strong. look who doesn't make sense lol

In that case, then, it's just a number. It doesn't actually do anything for the character.. it would be completely non-functional. Your character would be just as dumb or smart as you let them be regardless of their 'intelligence' rating.

True character intelligence can be handled by perks (though whether or not it will actually be remains to be seen). But if the attributes are just left in as redundant methods of upping your skills, it makes it harder to keep skill progression under control. See how easy it was in Morrowind and Oblivion to exploit attributes and make your character a living god, or to manage them improperly and seriously gimp the character.

Since the effects can still be handled, and be handled in a more controlled way, and leaving them in while removing the redundancy would make them do absolutely nothing except increment a number... what's the point in keeping them?

OK, let's take that seriously. What did intelligence do in the previous titles for Security, Conjuration, Alchemy, and Enchant? Intel was merely the governing attribute, no? It contributed no bonus to the skills; the skills could all hit 100 even if intelligence as an attribute remained completely untouched at 30. In fact, it's the skills that contributed to the attribute, giving it its +X modifier on level-up, not the attribute contributing to the skills. The only thing that intelligence would do regarding its governed skills was prevent the player from training if their int wasn't high enough in comparison to the skill in question.

So intelligence only mattered to its governed skills in training, something that an alternate conception can be constructed for.
Everything else is as-is, no?

Uhh, I could be wrong on this, but... Didn't Intelligence directly effect total Magicka and nothing else? I'll look it up on UESP.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Your skills and perks. You don't need attributes to improve security, conjuration, alchemy, or enchanting skills. Personality just helped your mercantile and persuation skills, which you can improve just fine without the attribute.

We're not thinking that you guys are irrationnal idiots, we're just realizing that just because you don't have control over them that much, doesn't mean they are not there. I DO bother to look. but I would want them to AT LEAST TRY IT ONCE, before simply removing it. THEN, IF it's PROVEN to be bad (IN-GAME, not here), then they can get the classic attribute system back.

You know, the games that are today labeled as classics. You know what made them special? THEY TRIED SOMETHING DIFFERENT (at the risk of poor game sales in case of a svckish system, but they risked it anyways, and it gave good results)

As I tried to say, arguing by redundancy just doesn't work. There is no reason why removing "redundant" things should stop at attributes, other than personal preferences.


The question is, to what or whom does the new system adapt? Certainly not to the customers who want to play with the usual attributes.


Again, it's not about the simple effects. With the same argument you can remove all weapons but swords and say "well, you can still deal melee damage, it's just all moved to swords now!".
And if we all just sat on our hands and waited, this forum could shut down.


While you could argue that H/M/S are attributes, there's no way around the fact that the majority has been removed. :shrug:

The majority HAS been removed -- from attributes. They just spread the end results of the old attributes out between three all-new, broader attributes and the (allegedly) more efficient and gameplay-friendly perk system.

"We're not bangin' rocks together here. We know how to make a character development system. Cave Howard, we're done here."
-Cave "Todd" Howard

Aye, so instead of axing them, a term so pervasive on the forums it even reached Todd in the interview released today on IG, how about Making it matter? nnotice I didn't say Attributes were fine as is, I made that post to stomp the stupidity people are regurgitating after hearing it from Todd that it wasn't just about Magicka, and that with more thought It and its many Other Attributes could be Made to matter and be DIFFERENT instead of thinking Perks will replace all the attributes when they are GEARED for Skills, NOT the three Attributes remaining, Simple division shows 280 across 18 skills leaves a handful for each skill alone speculating if all the skills are equal in perks.

I find it even more amusing and even Ironic that my character doesn't even have a Personality anymore...ups Personality is an attribute, its gone.

Where is that from?

Portal 2.

Cave Informer

You know what's the difference between attributes and weapons/magic? One is a number that barely gave a small bonus, and the ot her is an actual gameplay-changing element (you know, the thing that reminds you that you're actually involved in something, A choice that acutally matters because it makes a much bigger change than the number of tries you need or the chance of failure.

I know it's still a matter of choice, but seriously, having more intelligence for example, pretty much only gave you the option to say "oh look, even though my character is as intelligent as a 10000 year old wiseman, I'm still the one making the choices for him!"

It doesn't show, but I'm feeling just as strange as you do about the removal of attributes. It's just that to me, it's never made a deep character anyways. I prefer to simulate things myself, so that I can even simulate deficiencies or learning difficulties, than to be bound by a number that tell me that my character has the exact same potential as anyone else.

Alright, let me clear this up for you.
My point was that the people who want attributes to stay do not argue that the simple effects have been removed, which the most likely haven't. This doesn't mean we want attributes without effects.
Arguing with the flawed system in previous games is just wrong, because you blame its flawes on attributes themselves instead of the system.

Let me ask something to those who think a skill tree can replace attributes: Have you ever played a game with skill trees and attributes?


Exactly. Gave. Past tense. Attributes played too little a role in previous games, because you basically had an unlimited amount and some weren't as viable as others.


I swear, I have been reading the same three arguments for weeks now, and once I point out why one doesn't work, the discussion shifts to another.

#1 Argument from redundancy: We don't need attributes because the effects are redundant.
They are not redundant when you implement them in a meaningful way. Also, redundancy is not necessarily a bad thing when it increases complexity. And a complex system is what we want.

#2 Argument from effects: The effects are still there!
The argument is not that effects have been removed, but that they are not portrayed in a realistisc and complex manner. Also it is argued that a skill tree (perks) can not replace attributes satisfactory.

#3 Argument from previous systems: In Morrowind/Oblivion attributes were this or that, thus they should go.
We don't want the old system back.

Could the old attributes have been improved? Sure. Would that improvement, coupled with perks, have been cool? Potentially. Would that attribute+perks combo have been better than redistributing attributes amongst perks/health/magicka/stamina/etc? Dunno. Again, potentially.

But alas, attributes are gone, and perks/health/magicka/stamina are what Bethesda has chosen to fulfill their function. And we're not changing that anytime soon. So we get to deal with the hand we are dealt. Or not play.

My Hero!

Yeah they might have taken majority but they placed 280 perks to replace them. We are saying that the attributes taken out are redundant because the perks do the same thing. Why have two functions that do the same exact thing?

That is, without a doubt, one of the most blatant straw man fallacies I've ever seen.

I'm done with this subject.

what are you talking about? This is what Todd said in a interview, do you understand what the Straw man tactic is?

I've never actually posted before, but after reading a billion posts about attributes I just have to.
I don't understand the obsession with the attributes, because they are essentially numbers. That is all the former attribute system was, a clunky list of numbers. Bethesda in their latest effort has fixed that clunky list of numbers and created something that actually makes sense.
Now I must admit, I'm not a hardcoe role player like some of you, but that is because hardcoe role playing should be reserved for pen and paper RPG's. Bethesda's games are action oriented RPGs based upon things actually happening now rather than focusing all on the imagination more suitable for a pen and paper. That is essentially what I expect from a computer game. I do not understand how some of you place so much emphasis on that list of numbers. I am completely in agreement with Todd. Raising intelligence simply raised your magicka so it makes sense to alter it so you take about that middle man.

I also don't understand how it is being argued that the original 8 attributes have been replaced by 3 attributes. Those 3 attributes (with the exception of stamina replacing fatigue-same thing though) have ALWAYS been there. The only difference is before they were derived whereas now they are actively changed. Bethesda removed the worthless middle man of the old 8 attributes. These 3 new attributes didn't replace the old 8, the original 8 were simply hidden in the background where it makes more sense for them to be.
In Oblivion, it never made sense to me how, with the system of attributes used, a player could raise all of their magic skills to 100 yet still maintain an intelligence of like 50. Attributes do not make sense if you actively change them. To be honest, in my perfect game not even the new 3 could be actively changed. I feel like attributes should change passively and automatically in response to the skills that you level. However, I still prefer the skyrim system over oblivion as it has moved to become more understandable and actually make sense. Attributes should in my opinion act as a completely passive element. The true character gains should derive from the skills you choose to level and the perks you select when you level those skills.

I don't mean to offend anyone, and I can respect those of you who want that "extra level of complexity" by choosing your attributes actively, but I simply think that the active change of attributes is senseless and I am glad that has been changed.

Yes. We know why you pick Intelligence. Unfortunately for you, you are in the minority. The typical TES player, roleplayer or not, does not need a Post-It Note with a number on it to remind them of how smart their character is.

And I understand why Bethesda would not want to make a game for the minority of their players, from an economic and ethical standpoint.

:biggrin: Well, there will always be those that argue against evolution. :turtle: