Cliche Backstory? : V - Skyrim

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:28 pm

Methinks they're aping Dragon Age. Which itself was threadbare and utterly unoriginal, despite it's strengths.

most fantasy stories are unoriginal.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:50 pm

most fantasy stories are unoriginal.

Er, yes, that's why they're unoriginal: because they're commonplace. Morrowind had a far less insipid setting, while Oblivion was the epitome of generic fantasy gruel. It annoys me to see that they're probably going the latter route again.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:07 pm

The Norse influence is superficial.

I expect a butt-headed story. I can't expect anything less... unless Todd Howard and the writer for Oblivion's and Fallout 3's main campaigns has been sacked. Emit's his name, I think. Put em both in carbon freeze.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:04 pm

But the inherently evil enemy is dragged on way too much in the fantasy genre. Yes, it's a staple, but so many people do it that it no longer is an homage, but simply cliche. The Orcs of Middle Earth, the Darkspawn of Dragon Age, the Daedra of Oblivion. I want to see more perspective. Was Napolean evil? How about George Washington? Give me some moral ambiguity here.

The second, however, is tenuous. Heroes are real. Throughout history, the outcome of wars, nations, and entire populations of people have depended on the shoulders of one or a small group of men. But, there was no ancient scroll that prophesied Churchill and FDR beating Hitler. It just happened. So, while I admit that the player character will almost always have to be the hero (unless he ignores the main quest) I would prefer he not be "destined." Maybe that's contrary to the Elder Scrolls mythos, where even the future is written down. Certainly, the title "Dragon-Born" implies fate, as he was "born" to fill this role. It would please me greatly though, if there was no prophesy, and your character simply earned that name in one of the early main missions, where after being swallowed by a dragon, he/she cuts himself free, thus becoming "dragon born."

No freakin kidding. I'm fed to the teeth with all these epic roles. I loved Daggerfall's story a lot because it was very political, which you don't find too often in CRPGs. Morrowind was really good too, even though it used the prophecy setup. Oblivion was so damn cliche that I didn't like the story at all.

pretty much every fantasy or sci-fi story is cliche. but just because the story is cliche doesn't mean that its bad.

No, but it gets old pretty damn fast. And when it gets old, it gets boring. And when it gets boring, I don't play it anymore. And the whole point of making a video game is to have people buy it and play it.

Er, yes, that's why they're unoriginal: because they're commonplace. Morrowind had a far less insipid setting, while Oblivion was the epitome of generic fantasy gruel. It annoys me to see that they're probably going the latter route again.

I'm with ya, Tairos.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:24 pm

I liked how Morrowind did it. Started off as low fantasy, but stuff got more epic if you chose to follow the main story. The interplay between the great Houses was very interesting, then you wound up with the world-threatening menace of Dagoth Ur. I suppose Oblivion was like that too, but the only threat was Dagon and the daedra. Not much else of interest going down. No Mannimarco or anything (well, a joke of one)

LMAO and i agree. IMO TES5 should have a Beowulf / 13th Warrior, feel to it. Ofcoarse in the TES fashion, but these are both good examples Nordic stories done right.
Id like to play the role of a character on the "Evil" side for a change. Why cant you start off as a wicked bastard out for his own gain, but possibly sways in a different direction through your actions in quests/gameplay.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:50 am

Conflict, please. Everywhere. All the time.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:05 pm

My view is that Bethesda is not in the habbit of letting us down, and produces the best RPG games on the planet.

Thats enough for me to keep the faith and not worry about such things until game-time. We won't know the answer to this in any respect until then anyway.

Keep the faith!

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:55 pm

No freakin kidding. I'm fed to the teeth with all these epic roles. I loved Daggerfall's story a lot because it was very political, which you don't find too often in CRPGs. Morrowind was really good too, even though it used the prophecy setup. Oblivion was so damn cliche that I didn't like the story at all.

No, but it gets old pretty damn fast. And when it gets old, it gets boring. And when it gets boring, I don't play it anymore. And the whole point of making a video game is to have people buy it and play it.

I'm with ya, Tairos.

the whole point of the video game industry is to make games that we ALL love to play and that it appeals to everyone...i understand that we could ask more out of the story but this is too early to decide on if it is gonna be cliche...your thinking it SOUNDS cliche...wait till next month or in the coming weeks for further information...and besides we love the elder scrolls for what an immerse story that can be created from our imaginations...we merely just shape our journey in the game out of its story that is provided for us...

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:03 pm

My view is that Bethesda is not in the habbit of letting us down, and produces the best RPG games on the planet.

Thats enough for me to keep the faith and not worry about such things until game-time. We won't know the answer to this in any respect until then anyway.

Keep the faith!

yeah i agree...they think to have the game be a reiteration of oblivion but i have a feeling that its gonna be its own unique EPIC

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:52 am

I wonder how much the lore in TES V: Skyrim will be influenced by Norse mythology.

yeh so really expect it to be sorta cliche
but really TES is never cliche you really cannot relate the stories to a single set storyline unless it is broad

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:06 pm

Shakespeare once said there is only a finite number of stories to tell. The less details you look at, the more obvious this becomes.

Basically, everything boils down to two stories, Save the World, or Get the Girl. Love and Conquest, not much more to it than that.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:10 am

Here is exactly how the main quest will unfold. Don't read if you don't want potential spoilers, I've nailed video game plots almost beat for beat before :facepalm:

Spoiler

You'll start out as a prisoner of some sort, with no specific reason as to why you're their. In all likelihood something will go wrong with the prison you're in, possibly a dragon f*ing it up, and you'll escape through the first dungeon. In short order, probably before you even leave the opening dungeon, someone introduces you to the concept of McGuffin Man (Dragonborn). See, Dragon's are f*ing some serious [censored]e up, and the only one that can stop them is McGuffin Man. You'll exit to find that everyone in Skyrim has decided to go to war with each other over various reasons. Basically because killing each other is cool. You'll have to work through the fighting factions to find where McGuffin man is, convince him to help you, fight a dragon or two along the way. In some order: There will be a betrayal, you'll end up meeting the monk dudes that decipher The Elderscrolls Themselves, McGuffin Man will feel at the end of his rope/be captured, and of course in the end you triumph and the status quo is restored. BOOM! Done

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:46 pm

LMAO and i agree. IMO TES5 should have a Beowulf / 13th Warrior, feel to it. Ofcoarse in the TES fashion, but these are both good examples Nordic stories done right.
Id like to play the role of a character on the "Evil" side for a change. Why cant you start off as a wicked bastard out for his own gain, but possibly sways in a different direction through your actions in quests/gameplay.

The 13th Warrior was one of my all time favorite books, and movies. Great retelling of Beowulf, using a historical document as a basis.

The story would work perfect for TES. You are captured by a group of Nords. While encamped, they receive a message that a friendly king is under attack. An old wise woman casts her rune bones, and declares that 13 men must go and fight. The 13th, however, cannot be a member of the band that is encamped there, as the number 13 is mystical, foreign. Since you are a stranger, the choose you, and you are forced to join the Nords, travel to the kingdom, and fight the evil menace that threatens them.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:19 am

Daggerfall's plot didn't involve a Big Bad at all. You had the opportunities to right some serious wrongs, but the do all and be all of the plot revolved around something else entirely. I'm being deliberately vague here, because I know some people are playing and I dont want to spoil things.

skyrim's implied civil war could be similar. We just don't know right now. Yes, it looks like there's dragons involved, but we don't know that the game will necessarily involve saving the world by fighting them. Mind, I think the idea of a dragon using magic to take a humanoid form and assuming a position of power and pulling all the strings behind the civil war would be a cool idea...

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:52 pm

Here is exactly how the main quest will unfold. Don't read if you don't want potential spoilers, I've nailed video game plots almost beat for beat before :facepalm:

Spoiler

You'll start out as a prisoner of some sort, with no specific reason as to why you're their. In all likelihood something will go wrong with the prison you're in, possibly a dragon f*ing it up, and you'll escape through the first dungeon. In short order, probably before you even leave the opening dungeon, someone introduces you to the concept of McGuffin Man (Dragonborn). See, Dragon's are f*ing some serious [censored]e up, and the only one that can stop them is McGuffin Man. You'll exit to find that everyone in Skyrim has decided to go to war with each other over various reasons. Basically because killing each other is cool. You'll have to work through the fighting factions to find where McGuffin man is, convince him to help you, fight a dragon or two along the way. In some order: There will be a betrayal, you'll end up meeting the monk dudes that decipher The Elderscrolls Themselves, McGuffin Man will feel at the end of his rope/be captured, and of course in the end you triumph and the status quo is restored. BOOM! Done

If you're exactly right, I'll give you 10.00

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:28 am

There's a reason the Good VS Evil thing has been done to death for the last 10,000 years or so. It works.

HOWEVER: if the good vs evil plot is redone in the main quest AND every guild (look at Oblivion's Fighters and Mage's guilds), THEN I'll be annoyed.

If there's the one world-threatening High Fantasy plot AND some political stuff in the guilds/clans, I think we'll be in for a fun game.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:14 pm

I'm not saying you can't save the world. Just the idea that only you, not just happens to be. And history is sixist. So anything given a medieval context will especially deal with "men." Especially because it's undramatic to say "he or she will be the hero and he or she will save us..."

Well, you have it backwards. It's not "you're the hero because you're the protagonist." The protagonist is chosen by the writer because they are the hero and are therefore the primary mover and shaker of events. See what happened in Oblivion when they subverted that? People got miffed at being the sidekick. As for the sixism thing, yes it is sixist because the people writing it were men before current gender equality was considered a normal and healthy thing.

Obviously, aside from the fact that there will be dragons and the Dragonborn is somehow involved, we know nothing and likely will not until January. So I won't argue about whether or not your overall assessment of what the plot will be is correct since I don't know. However, I did feel the need to point out a basic tenet of writing you ignored, that in any setting the reader/player/viewer should be made to follow the most important and interesting characters by the writers. Some writers attempt to be "realistic" and "indie" for attention and follow average Joe Shmuck living everyday life with nothing exceptional ocurring. I tend to get bored with those excursions.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:10 am

I'm sorry, but the whole prospect of The Elder Scrolls (The actual scrolls, not the game), is about prophecies and such. I actually liked Morrowind's version. The emporer didn't actually think this guy was the Nerevarine, he just seemed that he could pass for it. Turns out, you are (debatable) the prophecised hero of the Dunmer.

There should always be a main quest about an epic struggle about the fate of the world/province, perhaps with grey morality, such as with Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal (though it should have been way more emphasized), but, generally speaking. The big bad guy should be killed.

Anything else inclued in the game, sure, just be a random guy who fits the role. I mean, look at the side quests in all the games. I was never the prophecised leader of the Redoran, or the prophecised leader of the Dark Brotherhood. I done these things on my own accord. They work great.

Perhaps if the game wasn't called "The Elder Scrolls", I could understand about straying from the cliché of Good vs. Evil, but it's just how TES is, and should be.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:21 pm

I'll admit that I want moral ambiguity. However having both a civil war and a common foe is the single best way, in my opinion, to inject a heap of grey and black morality. Just look at Morrowind. Dagoth Ur is evil, Omnicidal, yet still sympathetic, and while every other faction has flaws few of them are horribly evil. I hope that this is like what we will see in Skyrim, but I cannot stress enough that we still know as good as nothing. I speak here because I can't resist the lure of riddling talk and of wasting time solving it, but I try to keep myself grounded in that one fact until we get more information.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:12 pm

I think Bethesda knows better this time than to fall back into the same story they did with Oblivion and Morrowind. Hopefully they'll build on the strengths of both.

Basically, everything boils down to two stories, Save the World, or Get the Girl. Love and Conquest, not much more to it than that.

This is not remotely true.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:25 pm

One name:

Todd Howard.

That's all you need to know.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:25 am

Okay. So the trailer isn't much to go on, but two things are painfully obvious.

1) There is a menace returning to the land. If it is not pure evil, then it's intentions or motives are certainly incompatible with "the good guys." No world peace summits, it's kill or be killed.

2) There is only one hero who could possibly stop said Evil (or simply antagonists)

Now, the first one is...forgivable? At least they didn't use daedra again. But I would have still preferred the civil war in Skyrim to be the main focus. (assuming that's what's meant by "sons of Skyrim spill their own blood." But the inherently evil enemy is dragged on way too much in the fantasy genre. Yes, it's a staple, but so many people do it that it no longer is an homage, but simply cliche. The Orcs of Middle Earth, the Darkspawn of Dragon Age, the Daedra of Oblivion. I want to see more perspective. Was Napolean evil? How about George Washington? Give me some moral ambiguity here.

The second, however, is tenuous. Heroes are real. Throughout history, the outcome of wars, nations, and entire populations of people have depended on the shoulders of one or a small group of men. But, there was no ancient scroll that prophesied Churchill and FDR beating Hitler. It just happened. So, while I admit that the player character will almost always have to be the hero (unless he ignores the main quest) I would prefer he not be "destined." Maybe that's contrary to the Elder Scrolls mythos, where even the future is written down. Certainly, the title "Dragon-Born" implies fate, as he was "born" to fill this role. It would please me greatly though, if there was no prophesy, and your character simply earned that name in one of the early main missions, where after being swallowed by a dragon, he/she cuts himself free, thus becoming "dragon born."

My thoughts (and fears) exactly. While the Elder Scrolls are "prophecy" they are malleable. In other words, they aren't certain until events have already occurred. They are murky and difficult to read because there is an element of free will and uncertainty in the future. At least, that's my take on it.

Given Todd Howard's blatant enthusiasm for LotR, I despair of any real overt creativity being brought into TES under his leadership (unless he allows the dev team to actually be creative). Oh, sure, maybe we'll get some lore tucked into some books or in between lines of dialog, like in TESIV. But, TESIII dripped awesomesauce fantasy all over the place, and wasn't ashamed to bring lore to the forefront.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:55 pm

This is not remotely true.

Actually, love and conquest are, when it gets down to it, the archetypes of every story worth experiencing. No, you're right. Just conquest. There is a protagonist, an obstacle rises, and he or she must conquer it. So while there will always be details that make (good) stories unique, all of them will boil down to that and every Elder Scrolls game thus far has obeyed that precept. Arena, Champoin must conquer Tharn. Daggerfall, Hero must overcome web of deceptions. Morrowind, Nerevarine must overcome the tests of the prophecy. Oblivion, Champion must stop the Daedra Hordes.

Of course, looking at a table closely all tables are comprised of trillions of atoms. Does that make my dining room table suddenly stop being better-crafted than my computer desk? NAY! Does the fact that all stories are at their core stories make them all cliche and meaningless? Again I say NAY! Spoe ven though Skyrim will invariably entail some great threat that the player must overcome, that doesn't mean we need to start the pre-emptive "Skyrim will be cliche and svck" threads yet. We'll have plenty of those before the end.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:19 pm

Beth has never been about main questlines, right? That's not the main draw to their games. It's the amazing world they paint, and the history you take part in. None of my memories from their games have ever been about the main questline, it's always been about crazy things that have happened while exploring, funny characters, or intriguing politics. I couldn't care less about the main quest, but they better make a very deep world. That's the saving grace in their stories.

» Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:41 am

I tend to consider the TES main quests to be the best excuse plot ever. Although the beauty of it is that it can be seen any number of ways and given any level of priority based on the player.