He said all stories boil down to "save the world" and "get the girl", which is what I was responding to. Obviously all (real) stories must have a protaganist with an obstacle to face.

I DON'T CARE! Personally, I will be PUMPED if I get to play as the reincarnation of King Wulfharth.

So, writer's never write from the position of the antagonist? And the character archetype of the anti-hero is just a fluke? I think I've taken enough high school English to grasp that there's a difference between creative literary storytelling and simple rehashing of an all too familiar tale. The Neverine was a cool prophecy because while it has relations to stories and religions on earth, it's not something given play in video games. He was a religious figure who was worshiped by a select few members of a colonized race. Not the superhero of the world, although he did end up defeating the "bad" guy.

Oh. And as far as being the protagonist, I DON'T have a problem with that. Obviously. the story follows the character, as you said. What I'm saying is, if the Dragons are defeated, I prefer the "Oh hey, I can't believe that guy found a way to beat the dragons" rather than "WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? CAN'T YOU SEE THERE ARE DRAGONS EVERYWHERE? GET IN THERE, DRAGON BORN!"

I don't know if I particularly like completely gray morality.

Many things have a right or wrong answer, and it isn't often that you won't side with one side for one reason.

Yes, if you think about it from an apathetic or outside perspective both sides could be/are right, but when you're in the situation your morals and values usually stick out. And your character's choices in-game should reflect their morals and values and not make everything an impossible decision.

I'm not saying every quest should be "Kill the villagers" or "Give the beggars money.", they should just do something a little more gray without making EVERY small decision into:

• "Free an orphan from an abusive orphanage, knowing they have high magical ability and may kill everyone in a rage once they leave."
  
• "Leave the orphan in there."

I've never found the appeal to entirely gray morals, because they're heart-wrenching sometimes. Yes, a little bit of that is good, but I can't stand to play games where every quest I have to make an impossible decision. Choices should reflect realistic personality and moral choices in characters, not make the meanest and cruelest of people stop and think "Oh god, what do I do?" because really there's no answer, just 2 (or more) ways to tug at your heartstrings. Should there be some situations like that? Yeah, but all the time makes them annoying.

Ehm, 'realism'?

What in Azura's name does Tamriel have to do with the real world? Its fantasy, and an amazing one at that.
Of course predestination plays a part when you have a whole pantheon of gods and god-like things.

And, to paraphrase Terry Pratchett: 'Of course the hero overcomes insurmountable odds. Otherwise, what would be the point?'

On a final note: Cliches are cliche because they are true.

It is a cliche that most cliches are true, but then like most cliches, that cliche is untrue.
-Stephen Fry

*Spoilers! Youve been Warned!!*







The stories tend to be quite varied. it seems only otherwise when people dont want to look. First off, yes: The hero "Of uncertain parents, born on certain time" described best from morrowind how it works. Your character provides the lynchpin for progress, for whatever reason. In Arena, you were a prisoner, the only one who could end the Similacrum. In Daggerfall it gets WEIRD. You actually have to give a totem to one faction, but all endings are cannon. This resulted in the "Dragon Break" one of at least two events of unparalled proportions. What were fourty-four states became only four in less than two days time. This was rather chaotic. This was because *all endings* happend truly, even contradictory ones: Mannimarco, Numidium, etc. Thats what you do in Daggerfall, choosing your faction.

The second dragon break occured with the formation of the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur. he was corrupting the world, but by not by his own hand. The remains of Lorkhan, called Akulakhan, was going to be revived as a second numidium. Fortunately, you were able to destroy the insane Dagoth Ur, before a daedra prince proper reclaimed his Oblivion realm. With the tribunal weakened, both Akulakhan and the corprus and blight from red mountain wouldve swept across the world, an invisible threat rendering them too weak to stop Akulakhan.

In Oblivion, You were not sent to kill anyone, to destroy anyone. Merely to restore order. The world rested on your shoulders, not the tip of your blade; It was not just cyrodiil that sprouted oblivion gates, they were happening *everywhere* presumably including Akavir and Atmora and all those fun spots. and through your actions a new age, The first New Age since the games started. Your character effectively ends one empire that is ancient and was solid, which leads to the inevitable civil war.

Skyrim exists either during or after this event. And we have no idea what the threat is in this game.. I can tell you this much: It aint the dragons. Thats too simple. Oh, there will be dragons. Like Saint M'aiq said: "Dragons? Oh, they're everywhere! You must fly very high to see most of them, though. The ones nearer the ground are very hard to see, being invisible." but the threat will come from elsewhere.

So, you see my problem? the games were vastly different in scope and what happend and what you had to do in order to progress it. I simply do not see how you can consider these stories anything alike, except all resulted in a change in power that was almost definetly the correction of the dragon breaks that changed time as it was known to mundus. Theres not really that much linking them together..It really seems like you're grasping at straws. We dont want another Oblivion/Morrowind clash. They are very different events, in every case, and follow a very different course.

I think you might just be..a tad biased. I think you have neglected the obvious: The Nords and their new empire. There will be dragons..and much more, much more than ANY of us can speculate reasonably. I just dont like how you labeled it: the games are *incredibly* different, as are the final events. You mostly seem to be describing every RPG EXCEPT elder scrolls.

Also keep in mind: Mortals are alternately cursed or blessed by the other daedra. They were tricked, trapped there, by the young prince Lorkhan to become the mer and men we know today, after a time. So yes, in a very clear and direct way, you are destined for this.

Take a deep breath, remember 'Skyrim is not Oblivin is not morrowind is not daggerfall is not arena" and you will be MUCH happier. Because, just like all of us, we have no idea whats gonna happen, and wont until February.

The mural implied no such thing. almost all the figures are in indistinct heavy armor. Itd be hard to tell genders in such a force apart: People wore armor, thick chunks of metal (especially in the nord case). Unlike what you see on TV and video games, they dont wear ones that barely reach their thighs, thats just silly. I hate to say you're ascribing agency where there is none but..you're ascribing agecy where there is one. Not a siingle word, not a single picture, does a single thing to suggest gender. And why are you going to be second fiddle for sure? Only the emperor could stop the Oblivion Crisis. This was established in-game in Tribunal! Remember ES3? Where you became Neravarine? You werent sidekick. You were the hero-saint born again.

I dont know why you seem to insist on this zero-information ranting. Like half of all the societies in all the games were run by women. This isnt the real world, this is a world where people tend not to make such problems. The first Emperor (or the dynasty's founder) was female after all.

Why didnt you bring all this up during the last four years? The devs watch these forums to see what we want. But it seems like only now, only after the announcement, have you come and decided to voice your criticism. The elder scrolls V wish list was like 100+ pages long!

@MouseMage

You make an interesting point, which I guess is that within the Elderscrolls series, this particular story is actually unique, at least for the player. That is something I've come to consider, and I find it unfortunate that it follows on the heels of a game which seemed to many to have a linear storyline, or at the least a story line that played out in a linear way. I also admit that my personal distaste in other parts of the game sour my opinion to anything that appears similar, which at this time is the "Immovable Evil" and "Unstoppable hero."

I admit that upon second thought, I'm glad we're fighting the dragons (at least I assume) which is an old cliche, rather than befriending the dragons, the newer cliche, seen in Eragon, How to Train Your Dragon, Dragonheart, etc...

I guess I'm upset mostly that Bethesda chose to focus upon the main story in the teaser, instead of touching on the main quest but focusing on the series history as a game where you can do whatever you want, including skipping the MQ, They said; "DRAGONS...FIGHT EM" rather than saying "The Guilds have fallen apart...people riot at the gates of their kings...and beneath all the chaos...another enemy approaches...DRAGONS".

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@ second post

Zero information ranting? Maybe if you had read the earlier threads, you would have seen that I was discussing why the implication in the narration of the teaser when it is said that, AND I QUOTE "...in their tongue HE is Dovahkiin" does not mean that you are the sidekick again.

"Why didnt you bring all this up during the last four years? The devs watch these forums to see what we want. But it seems like only now, only after the announcement, have you come and decided to voice your criticism. The elder scrolls V wish list was like 100+ pages long!"

Check the join date under my name.
I've been here since '05 buddy, sayin the exact same thing.

I'm going to condemn myself to death, but I like cliché stories. I want to be the big hero facing the mighty evil villain in a glorious moment fully realizing the meaning of "epic" as lightning, thunder, earthquakes, tsunamis, and volcanic explosion rage in the background until the aura of the surrounding area is quelled into reluctant submission by the violently superior power of protagonist versus antagonist. I want to see the two, while both wielding unimaginable power, fight for the fate of the world in a majestic moment that will be told and passed down throughout the ages upon which the citizens of future civilizations will look and imagine with respect and awe. May the two powers clash until they fuse in an explosion of fiery greatness and may such a fire remain for all eternity as a symbol of what has occured there so that the battle will always be remembered and so that the hero's triumph shall outlive him, his children, and his children's children. May religions form to worship the conflict and its hero, viewing it as the salvation of all who then exist and may the site being a spot of pilgrimage until the sands of time finally wither away and the universe crumbles away as though made of dust.

:rock:

And you know what? I want to be able to do that too, especially in the Elderscrolls. But even if we can't take on the role of "bad guy" and bring about chaos, how about if we do not accept the MQ missions (ie We are asked by the Obi Wan Kenobi character (Jaufree, Cais Cosedes) to kill the dragons. Instead of saying "Yes" or "Later" we say "No." In that case the game should allow for another NPC to come along and fulfill the necessary role. I just don't like that if I don't do the mainquest, I have to live with the knowledge that it's my fault for not acting.'

*everytime I discuss Morrowind, I remember small, insignificant things that made it great. For instance, Morrowind does have it's cliches. The above example is the "Obi Wan" character, or Wise Old Man. In Oblivion, the WOM is Jaufree, and he's a church prior. In MW, the WOM is Cais, a drug addicted imperial spy.

We're talking about a say "no" option? By all means, I'm fine with that. I just want a big, good vs. evil ending (with me being the avatar of Akatosh, not Martin :stare:) if I choose to partake in the questline.

If a story can make you feel like you're there, then it isn't cliche. It's phenomenal.

I should remember this, before I speak: It is not the voice that commands the story: it is the ear.

I agreed with pretty much everything you had to say in the first post.

Alright, I didnt see the he's part. Not that its an excuse buut ive been awake for about three days and am pretty out of it. Still, my overall point is basing so much on so little, eleven months before it appears. Ive still got the Oblivion E3 videos, before Sutch was just a run down tower. I do apologize for being mean, but all ive heard today (though fortunately not much on this forum) is nonsense like "Hoopefully it wont svck this time." or other completely meaningles drivel. So yeah, sorry I over reacted a bit. Not having a good time, and seeing people trash my favorite series before knowing a hting about it has got me on edge. Unfortunately though, i cant check the forums. Im also a liiiitle delerious from a staph infection....Okay, more than a little delirious...

For a brief moment when a freidn was annoying me , in real life, I honest to goodness 'looked' for the bribe option. Thats was a tad startling. Not trying to make an excuse, I definetly shouldve payed mor attention. I am glad yo uagtree with my first part though. The games really are very different, but in all honesty, yeah, i didnt care much for leaidng martin around, especially with that strange NPC bug where they walk through a door but not out the other side until you walk back through the way you came. With all the NPCs running around it can take forever to fix. Though it is pretty humorus to kill Mehrunes with a console command.

I wouldn't mind having an ending where everything is left ambiguous. And the player dies. :glare:

... but then he/she gets reincarnated into the Champion of Cyrodiil-ine.

s'all cool bro. I admit to being someone who tends to pick on Oblivion. I do this despite the fact that I realize it is a very good game, but I think both sides tend to raise their voice in order to be heard "OB ROCKS" "MW ROCKED HARDER" "DID NOT" "DID TOO"

But at the same time I do have some legitimate complaints which I feel a lot of people see as not just a poor design choice, but a poor theme choice. It's one thing to combine Axe and Blunt because then the number of skills in 3 generalized groups are the same length, it's a bit suspicious when you also add a "tells you where to go" compass and the ability to fly around the map instantaneously. I'm guessing Beth did it to remove the "clunkyness" but I think it was too much, too fast.

I had a great theory about this actually. I kept thinking "What is it that makes MY character different from everyone elses?" And then it dawned on me: All the Heroes of Destiny have a Quicksave. I had the idea in morroiwnds main quest, with the false prophet since of course, the nerevarine cant die XD

But that's the power of the Hero's Journey. He is the one, like it or not. It's the idea that beyond all odds, hope, or aspiration he overcomes, and becomes more than he could have ever dreamed.

It's almost a paradox that despite being born for this purpose, he is not born a hero but made one by his circumstances. Without the conflict he would be no more a hero than you or I, and yet without him we could not succeed.

OP, you're asking for a level of subtlety I doubt video games will be capable of anytime soon except in rare exceptions. But like you, I wish video games in general would grow out of their obsession with making the player feel "cool". I think a lot of what makes video games immature, clueless, ham-handed and cliche comes down to the fact that the industry still believes players want nothing more than to enter the world of generic macho man #45876, with a colossal weapon in one hand and a sixy babe by his side. Apparently the average player isn't having fun unless they never have to doubt for a second that their character is perfect. So designers feel the need to populate their worlds with caricatures of masculinity, women who are never anything other than hyper-busty six idols that wear no clothes and antagonists that you have to try your hardest to believe are anything other than vehicles by which the player can feel more cool, more superior for having defeated (which they always will). I'm sure all of us can think of a good game that manages to get out of these ruts. But as a whole, I can't imagine this industry growing beyond its infantile wish fulfillment stage anytime soon.

I am asking for "a level of subtlety I doubt video games will be capable of anytime soon except in rare exceptions."

That's what Bethesda means to me. Exceptional. I'm trying to help them maintain what sets them apart from other games.