Is't only a problem of the AI. If some moron is shooting at you from the top of a tree and you can't reach him, the non-stupid reaction would be to leave the area.

Gothic 2 had its npcs climbing rocks and ledges after the player. granted there were still spots that the player could get to if he tried that the npcs could follow but the point is that it wasnt by design or readily apparent. By contrast, OB which came many years later should have had this feature already and i think its just lazy of the devs if it wont be in Skyrim.

I'm with those who think you should be able to climb stuff but that the AI should also react appropriately or compensate for that. Its a valid strategy and the player should not be penalized with a "then just dont do it" because the AI cant cope.

This is a RPG game, with like, you know.... MAGIC, and stuff.

So like, how hard would it BE, to, you know, have wolves that could, I don't know... run on the air to get to you? Or teleport behind you? Or ... maybe for the less magically inclined version they could even just ... JUMP really high and land on your stupid rock with you?

Alternatively-cool magically-explained phenomenon would indeed make the monsters appear more frightening, certainly. I mean, even if you could kill the wolves with one to two hits, the fact that no matter where they go, you can't escape them, that they'll get to you, would make the situation a little more interesting to say the least.

The fact that I played Oblivion and used the exploit 70% of the time in the outdoors speaks to the need for a fix. The game was much easier. The point of an RPG is to advance your character in various ways, in essence, to become powerful. Where there is an exploit that lets you get free XP, how is anyone going to stop themselves?

People also need to consider the psychology of gaming. Some people are very good people in real life, but others have criminal tendancies. They want to be good, but they crave power. So when they use an exploit to satisfy their craving for power, its like using drugs with no drugs in them, you think you're high but you're not. You lose the thrill. Power only brings glory if it's true power. By using an exploit, as many of us do, we cheapen our experience. Our stats improve and we look more powerful, but we know we cheated, and its a hollow victory. That's why I always get so angry when people say "well, don't do it, then" ... people with criminalistic tendencies will abuse the exploit, even if YOU won't ... maybe you're Mr. Goody Two Shoes and have a well-ordered life and don't seek power, just want to go into a roleplaying game to goof around and see the sights. Nothing wrong with that. But don't go around thinking your better because you don't abuse an exploit. You just have different motivations and different goals that render the use for such a thing invalid, and then you sit around with your nose in the air thinking your superior because you don't do anything wrong.

I personally feel cheapened every time I use the exploit, but damn it, every time I get into the heat of battle, my survival instinct kicks in, my ambition, my will to live at any cost (that's a natural ambition as any living being) kicks in, and I use the exploit because I know it will help me do that. Then after the battle I just sigh in disgust and feel sick that Bethesda could have ever left such a terrible thing in the game. Who knows what cool spell strategies I would have had to learn, to build, to think about, to overcome monsters if that exploit never existed? Who knows how rewarding such plans, having been drafted out of the most purest of needs, would have been, had I the chance to need them at all? The fact that the exploit was there meant all of my intelligent stategies were unnecessary, and therefore never realized in the game. Therefore I played at the most base level needed to survive, the one requiring the least energy, and thus always felt cheapened playing, and always felt just a little angry at the Devs for that.

I love RPG games the most of all games. I'm a die-hard RPG gamer from the 1980's. That's 30 years ago, my friends. I'll even take a broken RPG over any other game that's unbroken. Just because of the feelings it generates overall. But why is it wrong for us true fans to want the game to be polished up a bit more, and take exploits out. Stop coming on here and saying "don't use them" because it's absolutely aggravating to my very core. I need someone else to be responsible where I can't be. Bethesda, you're supposed to be the leader of RPG's, so why don't you lead then? Get rid of such exploits, and look for more exploits after the game ships, and fix them too, in patches after the fact. Please!

I couldn't agree more! It would seem that characters and creatures of different intelligences would also tackle the problem differently. A wolf might back up and growl in frustration. An Ogre might pound his fists on the rock. A human might give their friend a boost, or withdraw to wield a ranged weapon. Problem / Situation solving AI is difficult indeed, but the lack thereof can definitely decrease the in game vibe. When you have endless arrows, endless time and a rocky perch that is insurmountable.... It takes away from the experience. However being an elf or just an acrobatic character, who can use the environment to your advantage when outnumbered; was one of my favorite parts of oblivion.

Yes, but I can casually walk through any Halo game on Legendary and just decimate them as they come. Turns out that shooting me twice, then strafing 5 feet, then looking at me for a moment before firing again is not a solid battle strategy. At least in TES enemies present somewhat of a challenge, enough of one where people have to resort to this.

Simply put this should be fixed not to fix an exploit, but to make the game feel more realistic.

I agree! Simple and to the point.

I don't get it a lot of threads speak like Skyrim is based of Oblivion. Thats not going to be the case, is Oblivion based off morrowind? Not really, this won't be relevant in Skyrim. It might be there but if you want to abuse it go ahead. If you don't, don't. 99% of games have at least one place where you can use the system against it to make things easier. If you think that makes for a better gameplay experience then by all means go ahead! =X

To everyone that says 'dont abuse it' heres the problem with it . . . just yesterday i was playing Oblivion . . . i was sneaking through a dungeon and i come up to a big hall, i was standing on some sort of walkway with 2 goblins below me, there wasnt a path to the walkway in the vicinity so those 2 goblins just stood there, that little eye was glowing yellow so they definitely saw me.

i fire an arrow into one of them, it doesnt react, their AI was completely shut down . . .
so im left with a choice to avoid direct combat (which my char should do) and fire off arrows into non responding targets or jump down and fight them head on (even if thats not my characters fighting style)

so yeah, the only way i could not abuse it would be not to use ranged weapons, thats bullcrap and saying 'just dont abuse it' is just being a dike and refusing to see the problem



read what i wrote and youll see the game puts a choice in front of me to be an idiot or to abuse it, i dont like to be forced to make that choice

and yeah the AI might not be based of OB, but if the devs make Skyrim by the reactions of people that played OB then i guess a lot things will be compared to OB . . . and still 22% would like crappy AI from OB to be in Skyrim too

Voted no - leave it. Instead focus on how the AI deals with. If they don't have ranged and pathfinding fails, they should hide so player can't reach them either.

uhm, you are contradicting yourself, you want it to stay like it was in OB but you want the AI to react better . . .

everyone who voted that it should be changed thinks the enemies should hide or retaliate with ranged attack

W-what the F.... ? :banghead:

:wave: "Hello, Earth to Hoblak!" :wave:
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:rofl:

My gripe is not the exploiting bit but the dumb ai, the player should be able to take cover or ground and the enemy act accordingly not just run absorbing forward into what ever your stood on.

So don't do it because it's an exploit?


I agree.


Yes, as long as enemies' AI doesn't become glitchy, the tactical advantages you put yourself in (naturally) are no longer game exploits, and combat becomes much deeper.

Yes but what do you think the acrobatics skill is used for? to get the high ground The way the game is supposed to be played can be interpreted differently by every character concept. So it is an issue that needs to be addressed. There should be a number of contingencies that the npc should choose from when a pc gets the high ground. problem solved

If it can be fixed easily do it. Why would anyone not want to utilize their environment?

exactly

Okay but what about say in Anvil, I was playing a character who refused to eb caught by the law, I managed climb up onto rooves in Anvil without using cheats, so why should we eliminate if anything we should make the AI able to also climb on the same boxes and jump between roves.

Except why voted no?


Who's saying we should eliminate? :huh: The post you just quoted was saying it's a problem.

I agree with OP.
Enemies should be able to get on rocks etc...like yourself.
The don't use it argument here is invalied in my eyes.
If your a thief/assassin...your going to be more agile and not as tough as a paladin/warrior,you want to avoid danger,and us your speed/agility.
I would like them to have done something about this.

Sorry, I read it as "Climb a rock and shoot everything in sight abuse", as if it meant we shouldn't be able to reach an advantageous position in the first place. My apologies for not being able to read through *all* answers and just saw the wrong ones...

Using an advantageous position is being tactical, not abusive. I'm also a fan of getting some basic levitation into the game to be used for this very purpose (but I don't want "flying", just some basic constant drain thruster where you can't do anything else like fighting). With *AI* I mean beings that are actually supposed to be "intelligent". So if some undead ghoul decides to stand there and be pounded, so be it, he's probably not all that smart being dead and all But if an AI (NPC or thinking creature, of which a bear is neither) sees me do this, then they should react properly if they can't reach me and go hiding.

Think about it. If we can't have unreachable areas, that pretty much eliminates any possibility for levitation. The spot I levitate to (i.e. on a cliffside) may require the creature do pathfinding through several cells to get there. I've never used the editor though, so I don't know if pathfinding is adaptive or based on path nodes.

That being said, I think there was occasions in Oblivion where the "thinking" AI was kinda fun. I.e. conjurers trying to keep me at a distance, and tried to escape if I chased after them. Leading me into a room full of them. Now I was the one escaping, but only the "lure" would follow me and the rest stayed put, like they didn't want to fight me unless they could be cowards about it. Pretty awesome

Except you can be a level 1 in acrobatics, and the enemies can't reach you BECAUSE THEY CAN'T JUMP AT ALL

If the enemy could jump, but only a certain distance based on their acrobatics skill, then being an acrobat would be useful, because you'd need to have a high acrobatics skill to pull it off. In OB you could jump on a waist high object and be totally safe from the AI. You don't need a higher acrobatics skill than 1 to do that, so every level raise after that is basically a waste of time

Maybe ADDING acrobatics as a skill for the AI would make the game more interesting

well because of the dumb AI climbing rocks is an exploit, if the AI was good then it would be just another way of approaching a fight

nowhere did i say players shouldnt climbs rock or jump to high places

Using the environment should be a part of the game in terms of combat. Choosing not to utilize high ground is irrelevant because different characters have different styles. What if the character has a style where he chose acrobatics and marksman to gain upper advantage in combat. What then, when you have a dedicated skill to jumping, do you do when face an enemy? go against the very nature of the character no When you gain the high ground there should be a number of contingencies that the npc should choose from and not just keep running into the rock face or where ever.

Bad game design.

Fix the AI pathing and allow them to jump or climb.

It is a totally normal reaction for players to climb on rocks and stuff and then they realize the game has flaws because enemies run against a rock, when they could simply run away and hide or find an alternative path, especially by jumping up the same way as you. If this epic failness is in Skyrim.. It will be epic fail.

As people have said, just don't use it if you don't want to.
Sorry if I've already posted here, I can't remember, lol.