**UPDATE**
I would like to announce the release of the latest version of the (Closer to Realistic) Stealth and Detection mod. Get it at http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10843

CtRStealth v2.1 features a variety of improvements and some new features to make sneaking much more realistic and challenging than in the stock game, specifically;
Improvements

• The indoor detection radius has been further increased. It is now 3x the stock version, meaning that unless you are careful enemies can see you nearly 120 yards away. Firing weapons in subway tunnels or buildings will draw enemies from much further than before. Also, no more staying back 40yards and headshotting raiders with impunity in the SuperDuper!
  
• Outdoor detection is roughly the same as stock, but due to the nature of the attenuation algorithms you will actually be much less detectable then you were in the past. Sneaking up on enemy encampments in the dead of night should be more plausible now. No more raiders with built-in NVgoggles and super hearing!
  
• Visual calculations have been tuned, so that in perfect darkness you will be almost invisible. Searching enemies who come very close will have a reasonable chance of spotting you though, so don't get overconfident.
  
• Sound calculations have been tuned. If you run close to enemies, even if they aren't looking, they will hear you. Move slowly and you can approach close enough to cut throats from behind.
  
• Silent weapons have been tuned to make them more realistic. Remember that they aren't totally silent, and that the impact will make a noise.
  
• Enemies should search a bit harder when alert, should work more effectively together, and should be more tenacious when aroused.
  
• The previously noted issue of enemies not showing up on the radar should be fixed.

New features

• Noisy objects - clutter such as cans and bottles that litters the floor now makes a noise which enemies can hear (you will notice a little thumping sound). Watch your feet!
  
• More realistic Power armor (optional separate .esp) - You shouldn't be able to sneak wearing a clanky metal tank. To this end, most power armor now weighs a much more plausible 120lbs (by comparison, the famous metal armor used by Aussie bushranger Ned Kelly was nearly 100lbs without leg or arm armor). To compensate, the armor features increased carry weight, slightly better rad resistance and water breathing capability (I assume it's sealed and has an internal air supply).
  If you don't want this feature just delete the 'CTR Stealth PwrArmor.esp' from your data folder.

Things that still need work

• The script I am using to add sound events to cans and bottles (written by Samaelaunweor and Mortemim) cannot be applied to shopping carts, as they are "movable static" objects rather than "Misc item". Samaelaunweor is apparently working on this, but if anyone has any ideas on how to overcome this issue, it would make the Super-Duper a more fun place.
  
• Silenced weapons are still not where they should be. The iSoundLevel functions don't seem to work as they should.
  
• Noisy actions like jumping, reloading and opening doors should have a sound event. Unfortunately I lack the necessary scripting skills to pull this off at the moment. If anyone would like to crank out a script for these, I will incorporate it into the next versions. This might be of some help. http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1070438&view=findpost&p=15558316
  
• Finally, the Holy Grail! If anyone has any ideas on how to generate a detection event from enemies dying or spotting their friends bodies it would be a major boost to realism. If you can pull this off you will be a scripting legend!

Installation and other mod compatibility
Load the 'CTR Stealth v2.1.esp' and 'CTR Stealth PwrArmor.esp' last in your load order. It should overwrite other mods that change the detection calculations only. The optional 'CTR Stealth PwrArmor.esp' will overwrite any mods that change the power armor.

Feedback request
As always, I am very glad to receive constructive feedback.
My aim was to adjust the variables so that the sneaking in the game felt like it would be possible in the real world. If you try this out and encounter a situation where you feel, 'in the real world that would be possible/impossible, let me know the details and I will try to change it.
One major factor that can't be accommodated though is silhouette. Light is calculated solely at floor level. Look at your hands. If they are totally dark so are you. If you can see a bit of color, so can your enemies!
Btw, I did all my testing with a sneak of 50. At this level sneaking is challenging, but very possible if you stay slow, move when your enemies aren't looking, and stay firmly in the shadows. The level of challenge will vary accordingly. :ninja:

As with v1.0, I have uploaded a spreadsheet (many thanks to Mezmorelda for the slick layout!) showing the formulas and the numbers I have used. Feel free to examine, and test variations, but I would be very grateful if you could report your findings here.


*********************************************************************
V1.0 description:
The sneaking system in the stock game is very forgiving. While it was fun at first to jog through the Superduper Mart, headshotting Raiders from the shadows with impunity, it eventually got to feel just too unrealistically easy to fully enjoy.
There are a few mods that have significantly improved on this, but in all cases there was one glaring flaw that I noticed - If you stayed at least 40 yards away you could not only kill without being noticed, but you could turn on your light and jump up and down firing a machine gun into the ceiling as well!
This struck me as counter-immersive and a bit silly. Doing too much Jet and Psycho makes you deaf and blind?
In any case, the aim of this project is to improve the AI detection routines to bring them closer to reasonable expectations, especially in the aspect of distance. To increase the degree of challenge, but only in ways that make intuitive sense.
*********************************************************************

I look forward to any feedback and suggestions you may have.
-gurachn

Just grabbed this off the Nexus, really looking forward to trying it out.

Thanks Steve. Any feedback most welcome.

Some insights from Mezmorelda:

Excellent. I will give that a try. Thanks Mez!

Enemies not seeing their friends go down is by far the worst oversight of this game as far as combat goes. It's unfortunate that there isn't a way to impliment that.

Hi Kai,
The fSneakMaxDistance does limit the detection radius, but it does so not by merely setting an outer limit, but by acting as one element of an attenuation calculation. The resulting attentuation calculation is applied to each of the sound, visual and skill elements to arrive at the final detection score. This means that fSneakMaxDistance has global impact on all elements of the detection algorithm.
In the stock game the interior detection is calibrated to a max distance of around 40yards. Outside this is doubled to around 80yards by the exterior multipler (2x mult). As I said earlier, increasing the value of the fSneakMaxDistance causes a corresponding global increase in enemy detection ability. This is why in the stock game enemies seem to be unnaturally aware of the player's position.

In my mod I have increased the interior detection radius to around 120yards and adjusted the calibration to offset the global increase for that distance.
I then set the exterior multiplier to .7 which actually reduces the detection radius to about 84 yards, still larger than the stock distance.
Reducing the fSneakMaxDistance in this manner globally decreases the enemies detection ability, by reducing the attenuation multiplier.
These changes mean that while the enemy's detection radius is somewhat larger than in the stock game, their detection ability is actually somewhat lower than it would be at the same distance indoors.
As I said earlier, I think this reduced ability reflects the increased cover and ambient noise, which can make sneaking easier outside.

I have done limited playtests (night attacks on the Raiders outside Springvale Elementary) and noticed a significant difference from the stock game. My concern is that it might actually reduce the enemy's detection ability a bit too much, and I would be very interested in any feedback on the issue.

My point is that you are misunderstanding the formulas(or maybe you're referring to the GECK Wiki, which is wrong most of the time anyways when it comes to settings).
It doesn't matter if you do:
fSneakMaxDistance: 2000
fSneakExteriorDistanceMult: 2

or

fSneakMaxDistance: 4000
fSneakExteriorDistanceMult: 1

The end result n exterior is always the same(4000 in this case). You would only be making interior and exterior detection abilities for NPCs the same, which is bad design.

The fSneakExteriorDistanceMult is applied to everything the same way fSneakMaxDistance is.

Basically every formula that has fSneakMaxDistance in it, actually has to say if player.IsInInterior=0 (fSneakMaxDistance*fSneakExteriorDistanceMult)

Sorry, I'm not seeing your point. What you are saying is exactly the way I have worked it. My playtesting support that the results of the changes are as I have described.

In fact I just finished a session where I was able to stealthily approach the Raiders near Springvale Elementary (2nd level character, Sneak of 50). After killing one guy out the back from cover, suddenly a group of 3 night ghouls swept in. I was stationary in deep shadows and was not detected, so they proceeded in to massacre the raiders in the courtyard. I shot one with a silenced 10mm before they were finished without revealing my position.
I eventually lured the other two out the back using silent pistol shots (reduced sound of the impact brings them to the alert status without revealing my position) and headshotted them.
An interesting event, and one I am sure would not be possible using the stock numbers.

Too true.
Enemies can loot dead bodies, so there is obviously a function that allows them to detect corpses. I wonder if there was some way to use a script to allow this to generate a detection alert?
Unfortunately this is beyond my ability.
Can anyone comment on this possibility?

The main problem I have (and this has been with all sneak rebalances) is the ability of enemy units to hear perfectly through walls. In a large open area like the super duper mart the raiders should see and hear you from across the huge room. However in more closed area like springvale school I keep running into the problem of killing a lone raider in the corner room on the first floor and some how the entire building hears it and converges on my position. I'm not sure what the easy solution is to this. Exterior locations can all behave alike in terms of light and sound detection, but interiors have much different acoustics to account for. I'd expect a gunshot in a subway to put every living thing in the station on alert, but the sounds of movement or even a silent kill would be harder to detect. I'd like sneaking to be harder and more realistic, but I don't want to lose the ability to perform multiple stealth kills as I slowly clear out parts of a building.

Sounds just great, downloading this tonight with my fresh stealth/melee character and giving it a whirl. I noticed you mentioning that sneaking in nighttime visibility etc is more realistic now...thank god!...When I played F3 previously(5ish months ago) with different overhauls/sneak rebalances it was ALWAYS a huge pain in the butt to be a melee player and having every raider for miles homing in on me perfectly and in turn being helpless lol. Thanks!

I think that when an NPC loots a dead body, the AI sees the dead body as a container, not as another fallen NPC.
It's my theory that once an NPC has been "killed", they are nothing more than just a inanimate container.

Also, I've not forgotten about testing the settings you suggested in your previous thread. It's just that I've run in to http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1070435 that makes playtesting difficult. As soon as I'm sure that I've resolved the problem at hand, I'll try out your updated version.

This was already in Oblivion? "body's still warm..."

It matters in the formula where you put the exterior distance multiplier, and unfortunately there is little to indicate one way or another where it goes. What I mean is that IF the attenuation formula is ((MaxDistance - Distance)/MaxDistance)^Exponent . . . you could either multiply that whole result by 2 for being outside, or maybe it duplicates the max distance variable only, as in: (((MaxDistance*ExtMult) - Distance)/(MaxDistance*ExtMult))^Exponent

Anyway...you get a pretty different result over just doubling the whole thing.

No you don't. It's the same thing, it doesn't matter one bit.
Case in point:
(((2000*2) - Distance)/(2000*2))^Exponent=(((4000) - Distance)/(4000))^Exponent

It simply does not matter if you do 1x4000 or 2x2000 the end results for exteriors are exactly the same, you are only effing up the interior values.

No, that's not what we're talking about. What you say above is correct, but were comparing THAT way of calculating to this way (assume distance = 500, exponent is 2):

(((2000 - Distance)/2000*)^Exponent)*2 = 1.125

VS.

(((2000*2) - Distance)/(2000*2))^Exponent = .765

Again, we're assuming that the exterior distance multiplier is not applied (i.e. a value of 1) in interior cells. I'm trying to point out the difference in calculating things outside. As gurachn's spreadsheet is setup, he's using the top formula, and I think it's more likely to be the bottom formula . . . . but again who really knows!

couple other points (in-case they were missed above)

(1) You can get detection values in the game. Open the console, select an npc/creature, and type getdetected player
This will return the detection function from the creature TO the player, i.e. their chance of detecting the player. You can even run it the other way (from the player to detecting the creature/npc) by using player.getdetected ActorREF ID. In testing, this does seems to match up with the -20 to 0 being the "caution" range, and any postivie nunber indicating "danger." You can creep from "hidden" up slowly towards an opponent and re-check the value evey yard or so until it goes above -20, at which point it switches to caution status.

(2) The player's HUD radar IS the players detection formula at work. Detection works the same way for players as it does for NPC's creatures, and just determines when they show up on your HUD. For instance, you can increase fsneakmaxdistance and you'll immediately see enemies further out on your radar. HOWEVER, changing the sneak settings themselves will have a profound effect on whether the player can detect creatures/NPC's as well on their ability to detect you. In otherwords, with many of the tweaked settings, it becomes difficult to "see" enemies on your radar even when they are close AND in line of sight if they are unmoving, in a dark spot, and not making much noise, etc....

(3) The GECK formula isn't bad, but it's off in a lot of ways. With the ability to actually gather detection values, I played with changing individual variables and holding everything else constant to start checking what does what, and already found out some interesting things . . . for example, the players sneak skill is multiplied by the fsneakskillmult (0.5 by default), so only has a change from 0-50 (not 0-100) . . . this multiplier could be tweaked depending on what other variables where changed.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now.

cheers!

Hi Steve,
Actually, the enemy can't hear you perfectly.
There is a modifier based on LOS which I have set to .7, meaning they hear you 30% less than if you were in their LOS. It can be set higher of course, but due to the way gun noise is handled, putting it much louder means you may not be able to hear a pistol shot across the SuperDuper! Even though it is one big room, the shelves obscure LOS. It would be the same in subways, where you would expect sound to carry very well around corners.
But actually, due to the way the game calculates sound events, if you kill with one shot/stab out of LOS of other enemy, then you will not alert them.
If, however, you arent able to drop them in one and end up in a fight, then its not unrealistic to expect baddies in the next room to hear the donnybrook through the crumbling pasterboard.

Apart from this issue, how have you found the reactions overall?

Hey Mez,
You just beat me to the punch on this reply.
I was going to give an actual example using attenuation formula from the latest version and a range of about 100 feet (2100 units).

((fSneakMaxDistance - distance)/fSneakMaxDistance)^fSneakDistanceAttenuationExponent -
Using an fSneakExteriorDistanceMult of .8, we would either get:
A. ((7500 - 2100)/7500)^2*.8 = .4147
B. ((7500*.8 - 2100)/7500*.8)^2 = .1731

I think the latter approach may be correct (although I used the former in my spreadsheet). Although it isnt clear from the GECK Wiki, and the former approach seems to give more reasonable seeming results, I suspect they have kept to the way things went in Oblivion.

In either case it definitely removes enemy omniscience at night, while still maintaining a decent detection radius. In fact the issue may be that it gives the player a bit too much of an advantage (especially if the latter calculation is correct).
In my tests I have found it to have a good feel, and not be terribly unbalanced, but that could be because I am using Fellout with it's darker nights, and I am basically struggling to see where the hell the enemy are as well! Its almost like the blind hunting the blind, which, now that I think about it, may be exactly how it should be! :hehe:

Excellent work on finding the detection function! I havent had a chance to try it yet but it sounds like the ticket to confirming the formulae.
How is the radar looking for this version? I have never used it so I really couldnt say how this version compares with the stock settings.

Also, outside of dissecting the workings of the engine, any general comments on AI/effects in this version? Like those noisy cans and bottles and junk?

Hmm... I got kind of excited when I read this and started poring over the functions in Oblivion to try to see how this worked.
Unfortunately, I don't see anything that could allow a body to trigger a detection event.
I suspect this may just be a standard line, such as the FO3 Raiders saying, "You got what you deserved", when in fact they never actually spotted you.

Too bad...

Of course, I would be very happy if someone could tell me I am wrong about this!

I'll have to go back and look at my test character, I may have borked some of my console commands when giving myself skills and perks, I could also have something else affecting the sneak settings. I killed a lone raider with a knife in springvale school several times and each time I had a group of raiders coming for me a soon as the body hit the floor.

Exteriors however are wonderful, I tried assaulting an old church full of super mutants at 10:00 AM and was taking assault rifle fire as soon as I got close enough to make them out. I took out a few of the closer ones and made a quick retreat to meresti station, where I waited until 10:00 PM and then went back. The difference was like night and day ( :rofl: Get it!!!... :sadvaultboy: sorry) I was able to skulk around and place mines but I still had to be careful because the super mutants kept doing thier "stupid noises" bit.

I'm afraid I can't offer any direct technical insight into the game mecanics of sneaking, it's one of the areas of the game that I've never looked into too deeply. Though I may have play with that a bit and see what it is y'all are talking about. Plus I'd still like see if encumberance could be factored into it.

NPC comments about dead bodies are implemented directly through the dialogue system. There is a pane specifically for dialog for this situation (as well as similar things like observing a crime.) These dialogues can fire off scripts, including presumably CreateDetectionEvent. I don't know what effect SendTrespassAlarm or SendAssaultAlarm would have on NPCs that already have hostile relations to the player.

MMM is apparently experimenting with having witnessing allies die cause NPCs to seek cover without having to enter the alert or combat state. This is apparently done with AI packages.

Hmm... I dont usually play melee characters, but headshotting raiders with a silenced pistol doesnt seem to trigger an alert with other enemies unless they are in LOS. I don't see why knifing one should be any different. I will look into it. Could you tell me your level, sneak skill and armor weight? You didn't have your pip light on by any chance did you?


Cool. Are you using Fellout or one of the Darker nights mods? If not, how realistic did you find the challenge of oudoor night sneaking?


Definitely something to look into. If it can be worked out it would be a major gain.

Nope, I distincly remember NPCs recognising dead NPCs. I'm not sure what the engine mechanics are or if it's even usaeble, but find one those oblivion "sneak improvement" mods (much like yours) and have a chat with the author. I remeber I had a mod which had (at least advertised) NPCs reacting more smartly upon finding a dead body. Could it have been Thieves' Arsenal? On another note is it just cans that alert the enemy at the moment? I tried throwing a base ball to distract someone but he seemed indifferent. I've been following the progress of the script on the nexus and throwing now works yea? So if I throw a can at the opposite corner they'll have their backs to me?

For oblivion, http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showuser=326946 (Duke Patrick) manage to implement a method of dead bodies alerting other NPC's. Might want to send him a PM, and have a chat.

Okay I went back and took another look at my test character. I used the automatic save from the Vault 101 exit, then I consoled a sneak and melee skill of 50 and a combat knife at 50% health. After reporting that it didn't work I had this thought that maybe I got my commands mixed up and that I gave the Knife a health of 5000% and my sneak was at 0.5.
That wasn't the case, however when I consoled the silent running perk I must have miskeyed because I actually had the Swift Learning perk for some reason. I'll correct this and try it out again.

Also I am using the normal version of Fellout that makes the night darker, though I wish the moon were just a hint brighter it does make it exiting to sneak around at night. If there was some way of linking the sneak modifier to the weather that would nice. I am using a rain mod that is supposed to make sneaking easier while raining, I don't know if it can differintiate between light rain and a full blown thunderstorm, but thats not really up to you. I think there should be a minor difference in detection between clear skies and overcast, especially at night. Though with the number of weather mods out there trying to maintain compatability with all of them could get tiresome.

And regarding your modifer for LOS vs Sound Detection, you said that it was at .7. I was playing around in the GECK and found kind of a mickey mouse way of addressing this. Suppose you made your noise detection be .7 * AcousticGlobal. By default the Acoustic Global could be set at 1, but for some areas, like a super duper mart or subway tunnels the global would be set to 1.25, and for others, like a vault or statesman hotel it is set to .75. This could allow for some disparity between indoor locations that have different acoustic properties. How I did it was to make an object script that used the GetInSameCell function, and placed it on an object that I then added to key cells. If the player enters that cell the global switches to the local option otherwise it stays at 1. This may not be the best way of doing this, plus it would be kind of a pain to go through all the interior cells and place the Acoustic Token. :shrug:

Well, remember I made that mod a long long time ago, before all the cool new OBSE functions.
(I plan to update that mod with the new OBSE 18 functions for Oblivion.)

So my OLD method may not be the best way to do it now.

Basically, the dead bodies pulse out AOE spell every couple of seconds.
This spell then checks to see if the NPC detects the dead body using the vanilla commands.

Dead bodies (at least in Oblivion) are detected by NPC in a NORMAL way using light and los and all that.
They just are not coded to react to the dead that is all.

So once the detection functions say that the body was detected I use scripting to get the NPC to react appropriately.

The advantage of this was that all the normal detecting code available in the game is also used in my mod.
So you could drag a body behind a crate or leave it in the open in the black of night and NPC would not detect it untill they got very close.

If you find something of use to you in my Oblivion mod
you may use what ever resources you like from that mod if this is a FO3 mod you are making.

nm