Closing Statement on Lore

Post » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:51 pm

(Continued from The Canonization of Lore)

Having read all of your replies so far, I first want to say that in no way does distinguishing what is canon and what is not canon limit what you can discuss regarding lore, or the possibilities of those discussions being relevant to what has yet to be revealed in lore so far. I am not trying to end your fun or limit what you can discuss about lore. Lore is meant to be balanced, in that the games offer different perspectives on the truth. As such, no lore is inherently right or wrong; it's all up to interpretation.

However, there is a dividing line between what is canon and not canon. Take for example, M'aiq the Liar in Morrowind's dialogue about weresharks. Though M'aiq is not the most reliable source, and we haven't seen any weresharks in the games (that we know of), weresharks are definitely mentioned in lore, and so, are canon. Does this mean weresharks are real? Maybe, maybe not. Like all lore, it's left to interpretation. The possibility of weresharks is no more or less likely than the possibility of mammoths being female giants, but the possibility of weresharks has been referenced; the possibility of mammoths being female giants has not. One is canon, one is not.

The same thing cannot be said about unofficial lore. Unofficial lore can only reference what is already established, not the other way around; you can't make up a theory and claim established lore is referencing it. Developer texts are a different matter. The established lore may truly be referencing their current texts. But because of the uncertainty of future events, the developers cannot say, "All of my lore texts posted in these boards will definitely be referenced in future Elder Scrolls games." If they could, there'd be no problem.

Defining canon may seem trivial to you, but it is important for the same reason many of you have deemed it unimportant; it creates true equality within discussions about lore. This does not mean that all lore is canon, but it does mean that all lore is equal in worth. That is, someone's lore cannot be dismissed simply because that person is not a developer. Likewise, developer texts cannot be dismissed simply because they are unofficial. All lore is equal in its possible validity, but not all lore is canon.

It is a definition, not a restriction. It is because of the confusion of what canon is, as apparent in your mixed replies, that defining it is important. Without a standard to agree upon, in any discussion of lore you have no foundation for your argument. There is no mutual ground to begin a proper debate without first defining the terms. You risk misunderstanding one another because you do not share the same basic definition of lore. Without the same values, someone could say that Kirkbride's texts are not worthy of discussion because they are unofficial, which would be unfair. But if you both agree to an objective standard - Bethesda - and by doing so agree to a definite set of canon lore, you are free to discuss all lore as equal in possibility.

You may be asking why all of this is necessary. Well, it is because even though many of you may already view all lore as equal, you each have different opinions of what lore is canon, and in some cases no opinion at all. You may see unofficial and official lore without any clear perspective. It would be like two people discussing how far east Alexander the Great trevelled without first agreeing that he was a real person and not a historical myth. Would both take the discussion seriously? And if one person was just humoring the other, what does that say about the discussion itself? Was it a waste of time? How then can we discuss lore without defining what it is? How do we separate a theory based on evidence from pure speculation? Reason is a double-edged sword. Having clear definitions makes starting a discussion easier and prevents misunderstanding.
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Nicole Elocin
 
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Post » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:39 pm

Bad move, friend.

You're welcome to an opinion, and I, for one, respect your willingness to voice it in this hotbed of Kirkbridean orthodoxy, but making a second thread after the first one is closed is probably unwise.
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Darren Chandler
 
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Post » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:43 pm

I think that most people are in agreement that Bethesda's lore takes preference 100% of the time. Theories using Bethesda's lore, Apocrypha and MK's Lore fills in all the blanks.

I don't see how anyone could have a problem with "filling in the blanks". It's like having a problem with science which is just plain ignorant.

Also is there really a need for all these posts?
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Alexander Lee
 
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Post » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:29 am

SeriousFace, I was rudely interrupted. I'd rather say this and nothing more than to have said nothing at all.

lil_rhys, you'd be surprised. If I didn't think this was that necessary I wouldn't have said anything.
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Ashley Tamen
 
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Post » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:18 am

SeriousFace, I was rudely interrupted. I'd rather say this and nothing more than to have said nothing at all.

It's general forum ettiquette that you don't make a new thread from a locked one.
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Mason Nevitt
 
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Post » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:47 am

lil_rhys, you'd be surprised. If I didn't think this was that necessary I wouldn't have said anything.
Why? I'm curious.
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Lauren Graves
 
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Post » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:59 am

If I may offer a thought.

I see here a similar problem to the one faced by Star Wars fans and loresmyths such as myself. In SW "canon" is the movies, everything else is apocrypha. But the movies have changed (Special Edition esp. "Han shot first") and thus there is a confusion on canonicity. Also as the apocryhpal stories grow (novels, comic books, cartoon series) question arise about the truth or falsehood of aspects of the canon - is Darth Vader really just a sad old man?!? The thing people who argue about canonicity in SW forget is that Lucas has crafted a "myth" in the Campbellian sense - myths are told and retold and sometimes they are changed. Contradictions, confusion, alternate story-lines - all are a part of the life and legacy of a myth. Hence all the people "filling in the gaps" in SW are contributing to a vast, varied, contradictory story - to the building of a myth.

I see TES the same way. There are aspects of TES lore that are contradictory (The Arcturian Heresy) and they are meant to be. TES has gone a long way to establish that multiple perspectives exist on each event in the history of Tamriel, and that there is little chance of knowing an objective truth. Sometimes those contradictions may be pointing to deeper truths (Sithis, Lorkhan, Shor and "the missing Heart") and sometimes they are an expression of a world where its almost impossible to know whats "really" happening. Did Martin become the avatar of Akatosh, did Akatosh manifest, did the Oversouls of the Amulet of Kings manifest as an Akatoshian avatar? As one TES book says, "maybe all are true".

I -think- Bethesda is letting us decide for ourselves.

EDIT: spelling etc.
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sw1ss
 
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Post » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:30 pm

I was rudely interrupted. I'd rather say this and nothing more than to have said nothing at all.


Good, since you said it, I will close it.
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Laura Mclean
 
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