[RELZ] Cobl #14 : IV - Oblivion

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:39 am

I assume this is directed to me? I'll do that?

Only for the MMM parts (and only because you said you were working on them), but it seems like you've got a better notes on it than I do.
...
oh jebus, you've already done the MMM patch. OK, then, consider all of it as the Democratic "We" (as in, I'll do it, but I'd like votes/comments/suggestions).

:whisper:
You couldn't make it replace OOO boar/wolf/deer hides with the MMM ones as well, could you?

Yeah, that's a good point (though it may better belong in MMM4OOO.esp).

I think this is mainly for compatibility with other plugins. For example, FCOM users don't use MMM.esp, only the esm. Also, MMM+OOO users don't use MMM.esp, they use MMM4OOO.esp (and both MMM.esm and MMM4OOO.esm).

As a result, everything has to be in MMM.esm, so that it's all available to FCOM and OOO users, which basically leaves MMM.esp to make leveled list changes/merges and override some changes in the UOP.

Hmm.... maybe it's just the Alpha version that's weird? (a lot of overlap)

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:18 am

Hmm.... maybe it's just the Alpha version that's weird? (a lot of overlap)

nope all has intended for compatiblity reason's.

MMM Cobl Patch - Already looking it over, giving it a test has well.

-----

Cobl Tweaks and Cobl Glue changes no problem with changes that are have been propsed. Looking them over, but no objections so far

-----

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:10 am

nope all has intended for compatiblity reason's.

The compatibility game has gotten much harder, then.

MMM Cobl Patch - Already looking it over, giving it a test has well.

Thanks CorePC.

More than likely, I'll edit a bit of the Tweaks and MMM files Vac and migck worked on and release tonight or tomorrow. Then I need to turn my attention to Pluggy for a bit (gotta' check out OBSE's new internal array passing, and oh boy it's a bit nasty for Delphi<->C++).

[ack, I keep forgetting to mention this] From what I remember, you can't loot from Arena creatures - therefore, we don't really have a reason to change them. Or are there mods that let you, or am I misremembering?

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:11 am

[ack, I keep forgetting to mention this] From what I remember, you can't loot from Arena creatures - therefore, we don't really have a reason to change them. Or are there mods that let you, or am I misremembering?

As I remember you can't loot the NPC combatants in the vanilla Oblivion arena questline, but once you got to champion rank you could loot the animal opponents. On the other hand there have been mods that changed this for as long as I've been playing and I know I've been using a mod that allowed me to loot all opponents from the first time I entered the arena a very long time ago. And yes, I already did the new MMM Cobl patch and have gone back to animating my lovely particle systems. :twirl:

Err, if you're going to release an update to Cobl, would it make sense for me to release an update for II *before* you do so, rather than hours after you do so, as I have been wont to do in the past?

Vac

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:46 am

Err, if you're going to release an update to Cobl, would it make sense for me to release an update for II *before* you do so, rather than hours after you do so, as I have been wont to do in the past?

Makes sense

Going to tack on some comments on the file here:

cobTiDaedraDrop is circular - can circular be used for good, or does Oblivion choke on it?
cobTiGiantBloodLoot - this list is included on every giant, and guarantees at least 1 vial of blood. These are really good ingredients - good effects, worth 75 gold. I'm thinking of changing the Chance None to 50%, and leaving the rest as is - so there's an equal chance to get 1, 2, or 3 vials.
CreatureGolemGlassGreater has a different bound radius - I assume this is from an older version of MMM so I'll use the current alpha's number (127.587090).
MMMLCFrostGiant should have a Giant's Heart and Blood loot, instead of replacement. (At least, all the Hill Giants did.)
Same thing for Troll blood list as for Giant's blood
I might add cobTiLichDust to a % leveled list because it's pretty powerful - it replaces Bonemeal (which is pretty useless). However, liches are pretty hard to beat so this might be a worthwhile reward (as the only other reward is Soul Gems).
cobTiWraithEssence - I'd like to add this to a list with a 33% chance of Ectoplasm and 67% chance of Wraith Essence
Thanks for pointing out the zzMMMOnLoadCreatureLoot script - it needs to be altered (in MMM-COBL) to give out COBL items instead of MMM items.

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:35 pm

[*]cobTiDaedraDrop is circular - can circular be used for good, or does Oblivion choke on it?

TES4Edit Change Referencing Records oversight on my part. Circular lists... can be useful, or at least I got desirable results in tests, but in this case it's an accident (and completely unnecessary).

[*]cobTiGiantBloodLoot - this list is included on every giant, and guarantees at least 1 vial of blood. These are really good ingredients - good effects, worth 75 gold. I'm thinking of changing the Chance None to 50%, and leaving the rest as is - so there's an equal chance to get 1, 2, or 3 vials.

Please do! Remember that the TI ingredient lists were (afaik) done by Tarnsman a long while back and have been unchanged for a long time. There are several adjustments I'd be very happy to see getting made.

[*]CreatureGolemGlassGreater has a different bound radius - I assume this is from an older version of MMM so I'll use the current alpha's number (127.587090).

Yep, please do.

[*]MMMLCFrostGiant should have a Giant's Heart and Blood loot, instead of replacement. (At least, all the Hill Giants did.)

Ahh, that's an error from the way II does it differently. II assigns a Frost Giant heart, and if that isn't available then a regular Giant heart. I removed the II list, but forgot to replace it with the regular giant heart.

[*]Same thing for Troll blood list as for Giant's blood

Again, please do, I'd be very happy to have this stuff reduced in availability.

[*]I might add cobTiLichDust to a % leveled list because it's pretty powerful - it replaces Bonemeal (which is pretty useless). However, liches are pretty hard to beat so this might be a worthwhile reward (as the only other reward is Soul Gems).

You don't meet liches until higher levels and they present a decent challenge, so this doesn't seem as serious as the troll and giant blood.

[*]cobTiWraithEssence - I'd like to add this to a list with a 33% chance of Ectoplasm and 67% chance of Wraith Essence

Seems reasonable enough. I'll update II when you do.

I'll get the MMM Cobl tweaks updated with this in a bit.

Vac

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:30 am

I'll get the MMM Cobl tweaks updated with this in a bit.

Don't worry - I've already made the changes (weren't really all that many, especially compared to the number you created for MMM-Cobl). One last question - bandits, there a whole lot of them, but only a few edited. Does MMM only use a few, or should I go ahead and add the others to the list?

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:23 pm

Don't worry - I've already made the changes (weren't really all that many, especially compared to the number you created for MMM-Cobl). One last question - bandits, there a whole lot of them, but only a few edited. Does MMM only use a few, or should I go ahead and add the others to the list?

If you look carefully you'll notice that all those bandits have one thing in common: they're khaajit. If I missed any khaajiti bandits then please let me know and feel free to add them. Bandits from other races, well, somehow it doesn't seem right for them to be carrying a stash of moon sugar, but as I've said before: I'm a lore philistine, maybe I missed something.

Vac

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:59 pm

Vacuity is Item Interchange not covering the New Ones that MMM is Adding? I see Cobl Item Listed On them , and MMM Cobl Patch is Addressing the Vanilla Ones Only.

Corepc

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:59 am

Vacuity is Item Interchange not covering the New Ones that MMM is Adding? I see Cobl Item Listed On them , and MMM Cobl Patch is Addressing the Vanilla Ones Only.

Corepc

Sorry, I'm maybe missing something?

The MMM - Cobl patch I made adds moonsugar loot to the various "evil" khaajit in MMM that I know of with the following exceptions:
SI khaajit - no availability/no need (they're already nuts).
Adventurers - I'm assuming these guys are responsible enough that they're not going to carry their moonsugar around with them while they're adventuring.
Zombie khaajit - Err...
Vampire khaajit - I didn't see any, but I wouldn't give these guys moonsugar either.

Maybe I really do have an old MMM esm? I thought I got the latest b3. Care to tell me a FormID I am missing, so I can easily check?

Vac

Edit: I've just spotted I forgot to copy the vanilla khaajit bandits into the MMM-Cobl patch...? Is that what you mean? That needs fixed, Haama.

» Fri May 27, 2011 3:13 pm

Edit: I've just spotted I forgot to copy the vanilla khaajit bandits into the MMM-Cobl patch...? Is that what you mean? That needs fixed, Haama.

Yes, the Vanilla Bandits those where the ones I was referring to.

Both OOO and MMM change the Vanilla Ones, so they should be included in each Cobl Patch has needed.

But there are some MMM ones, The New OutLaw Variants those Khajiits variants do not have cobl item ~~BanditMeleeFemale2 & 4a, and BanditMeleeMale2 & 4a. I scanned through the rest of khajiit list and those are only ones missing.~~ -

Those from Additional Enemy Variants = Item Iterchange covers those..

SI Ones but that is a different issue.

-----
Those that I posted above are covered in Cobl Tweaks Plugin.

But could just intergrate cobl tweaks changes itself into the MMM-Cobl.patch has well since MMM is modiying those vanilla liches, trolls, a few of main quest ones has well.

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:03 am

Speaking of the TESNexus Comment Overhaul - I've set up 3 new sections: Bugs, Discussion (i.e., the frickin' Luggage location), and Feedback, and turned off user-created threads. Let me know what you peoples think - more threads, allow user threads, etc. To be honest, I really like the idea, and, if it weren't for precedence, would like to use TESNexus as the main thread... (just a statement of preference, I'll still respond to a note where ever it may be, except for PES because it's a PITA).

Nobe question: was does PITA mean?

It was high time for Nexus to do something like that, searching for a solution to a problem and wading through a bunch of "great Mod" and "I like it" messages is really no fun; the only pity is that Nexus has become a rather unreliable download source (too many users maybe). I am a premium member but even so small files wont download for the last couple of days.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:47 am

But could just intergrate cobl tweaks changes itself into the MMM-Cobl.patch has well since MMM is modiying those vanilla liches, trolls, a few of main quest ones has well.

Found them and made the changes. I still have a few things to do, but will try to upload a Proposal file for everyone to look at tomorrow night. Still to go - Ti Loot lists (looks like it'll be more complicated than I though and will require a few LL1 lists), Spriggan loot lists, boar loot lists, and Coleen/Farmer's Market loot lists (for Glue). And then take a look at OOO lists and see what needs to be done there.

Nobe question: was does PITA mean?

Pain in the ***

It was high time for Nexus to do something like that, searching for a solution to a problem and wading through a bunch of "great Mod" and "I like it" messages is really no fun; the only pity is that Nexus has become a rather unreliable download source (too many users maybe). I am a premium member but even so small files wont download for the last couple of days.

That has been disappointing, but it sounds like he's been pushed into a bit of a corner until he gets enough money to get better servers. Still, I'll take a 90% of the time website that I like to use over 100% of a website I can just barely stand.

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:47 am

It was high time for Nexus to do something like that, searching for a solution to a problem and wading through a bunch of "great Mod" and "I like it" messages is really no fun; the only pity is that Nexus has become a rather unreliable download source (too many users maybe). I am a premium member but even so small files wont download for the last couple of days.

That wasn't Robin's fault. His service provider went into full-on donkey mode, and accidentally deleted the files.

Eloise

» Fri May 27, 2011 1:41 am

I recently updated both MMM to 3.7b3 (including the required BSA) and COBL to 1.72. I uninstalled the previous version of MMM, using OBMM (I had installed it from an OMOD package). Everything seems to work okay in my current game, but I noticed the inventory icons for bear pelts, gold and silver nuggets, platinum coins and some of the gems (the sapphires) were missing. I am using Gems and Gem Dust (3.7b3) and Hunting and Crafting (3.7b3p3).
I just reinstalled the COBL 1.72 textures. Can anyone recommend anything else I can try (if that doesn't work)?
Can I use Wrye Bash to fix this?

Thanks.

P.S. As this could be caused by MMM 3.7b3, I have posted this message to the MMM thread, as well.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:18 am

Hello,

Forgive me if this isnt the correct place for Real Hunger-COBL doubts. I tried to find a specific topic about it, but no luck, and this one seems to be the closest.
Just woud like to know it would be normal to have http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk145/koki373737/oddstats.jpg kind of stats after staying about two days without eating. My character colapsed and those were the stats. My "normal" magicka would be around 300 and HP around 100

Follows my modlist

Thank you

Active Mod Files:00  Oblivion.esm01  Cybiades.esm  [Version 2.0]02  Windfall.esm03  Jog_X_Mod.esm04  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 0.9.7]05  Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm06  Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm07  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.72]08  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.34]09  Mart's Monster Mod.esm  [Version 3.7b1]0A  Diverse Wisps - Base.esm0B  TamrielTravellers.esm  [Version 1.39c]0C  FCOM_Convergence.esm  [Version 0.9.9a7]0D  Armamentarium.esm  [Version 1.3]0E  Artifacts.esm0F  Better Cities Resources.esm10  Progress.esm  [Version 2.2]11  TR_OoT_Main.esm12  BlackScreenToggleFix.esp13  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.2.0]14  UOP Vampire Aging & Face Fix.esp  [Version 1.0.0]15  Oblivion Citadel Door Fix.esp16  DLCShiveringIsles.esp17  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.4.0]18  Better Cities .esp19  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp1A  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp1B  Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp1C  Francesco's Optional Leveled Quests-SI only.esp1D  Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp++  FCOM_Francescos.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp  [Version 0.9.9]1E  FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp  [Version 0.9.9]1F  Fran_Lv30Item_Maltz.esp**  All Natural.esp  [Version 0.9.7]20  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 0.9.7]21  All Natural - EW + NW + AWS.esp  [Version 0.9.6]22  Enhanced Water v2.0 ND.esp23  AmbientTownSounds.esp24  MIS Low Wind.esp25  MIS New Sounds Optional Part.esp26  Atmospheric Oblivion.esp27  WindowLightingSystem.esp28  Ayleid Loot EXtension.esp29  ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp++  Item interchange - Extraction.esp  [Version 0.76]2A  Luchaire's Neck Seam Concealer.esp2B  Mage_Guild_Teleport.esp2C  More_Vegetables.esp2D  Living Economy - Items.esp2E  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 2.1.2]2F  Crowded Roads.esp  [Version 2.0]30  Map Marker Overhaul.esp  [Version 2.3]31  DLCHorseArmor.esp32  DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.5]33  DLCOrrery.esp34  DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.3]35  DLCVileLair.esp36  DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.5]37  DLCMehrunesRazor.esp38  DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.4]39  DLCSpellTomes.esp++  DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.1]++  MaleBodyReplacerV4.esp3A  Hiyoko_Store.esp3B  Thieves Arsenal.esp**  Armamentium female.esp3C  DLCThievesDen.esp3D  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.5]3E  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch - SSSB.esp  [Version 1.0.4]3F  ExnemRuneskulls.esp++  FCOM_ExnemRuneskulls.esp  [Version 0.9.9]40  Slof's Oblivion Robe Trader.esp41  Cobl Glue.esp  [Version 1.72]42  Cobl Si.esp  [Version 1.63]**  OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp  [Version 1.72]++  FCOM_Cobl.esp  [Version 0.9.9]43  Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp44  FCOM_BobsArmory.esp  [Version 0.9.9]45  Loth's Blunt Weapons- Mobs.esp46  Loth's Blunt Weapons for Npcs.esp++  FCOM_LothsBluntWeapons.esp  [Version 0.9.9]47  Oblivion WarCry EV.esp48  FCOM_WarCry.esp  [Version 0.9.9]49  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp  [Version 1.34]++  ArmamentariumLLVendors.esp  [Version 1.3]4A  ArmamentariumArtifacts.esp  [Version 1.3]++  ArmamentariumLLArmaVendor.esp  [Version 1.3]4B  OBSE-Storms & Sound SI.esp4C  FCOM_Convergence.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_EntropicOrderRebalance.esp  [Version 0.9.9beta2]4D  FCOM_RealSwords.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_SpawnRatesReduced.esp  [Version 0.9.9]4E  Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp  [Version 3.7b1]++  FCOM_SaferRoads.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_LessRats.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_NoReaversInGates.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_NoAdventurersInGates.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_LessReaversInGates.esp  [Version 0.9.9]4F  Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp  [Version 3.7b1]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp  [Version 3.7b1]++  Mart's Monster Mod - No Blood.esp  [Version 3.7b1]50  Mart's Monster Mod - Zombies for Body Meshes.esp  [Version 3.7b1]51  Mart's Monster Mod - Vindasel.esp  [Version 3.7b1]52  Mart's Monster Mod - Foxes.esp  [Version 3.7b1]53  Mart's Monster Mod - Dungeons of MMM.esp  [Version 3.7b1]54  Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp  [Version 3.7b1]55  Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp  [Version 3.7b1]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Wisps.esp  [Version 0.10]56  Mart's Monster Mod - Durzog Addon.esp  [Version 0.10]++  TamrielTravellerAdvScript.esp  [Version 1.39c]57  TamrielTravellers4OOO.esp  [Version 1.39c]58  TamrielTravellersItemsNPC.esp  [Version 1.39c]59  TamrielTravellersItemsCobl.esp  [Version 1.39c]++  FCOM_TamrielTravelers.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_Archery.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_FriendlierFactions.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  ArmamentariumLL4OOO.esp  [Version 2.0]++  Fransfemale.esp5A  OOO-WaterFish.esp  [Version 1.34]++  MMM-Cobl.esp  [Version 1.69]++  EVE_StockEquipmentReplacer4FCOM.esp5B  Ivellon.esp  [Version 1.8]5C  Artifacts.esp++  Artifacts - ArmaCompleteAddon.esp  [Version 0.20]5D  Dwemer_Skyship_1_1_0.esp5E  Kragenir's Death Quest.esp5F  KDQ - Rural Line Additions.esp60  OldCrowInn.esp  [Version 1.5]61  GlenvarCastle.esp62  LetThePeopleDrink.esp  [Version 2.5]63  KragenirsDeathQuest-LetThePeopleDrink patch.esp64  The Ayleid Steps.esp  [Version 2.6.1]65  thievery.esp66  thievery - EE patch.esp  [Version 1.0]67  TR_Stirk.esp68  Stirk_Compatibility_Patch.esp69  VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp6A  Windfall.esp6B  Cyrodiil Travel Services.esp  [Version 1.3]6C  za_bankmod.esp6D  DLCFrostcrag.esp6E  DLCFrostcrag - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.4]6F  Knights.esp70  Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.9]++  EVE_KnightsoftheNine.esp71  Cybiades.esp  [Version 2.1]72  CybiadesDungeon.esp  [Version 2.1]73  The Lost Spires.esp74  AFK_Weye.esp75  Blood&Mud.esp76  Shadowcrest_Vineyard_COBL.esp77  FCOM_Blood&Mud.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_Knights.esp  [Version 0.9.9]++  FCOM_SlofsRobeTrader.esp  [Version 0.9.9]78  BrewHouse.esp79  ElsweyrAnequina.esp7A  road+bridges.esp  [Version 4.4.4]7B  NRB4+Vineyard Patch.esp7C  xuldarkforest.esp  [Version 1.0.3]7D  LostSpires-DarkForest patch.esp7E  xulStendarrValley.esp  [Version 1.2.1]7F  xulTheHeath.esp80  MMMMWL-TheHeath patch.esp81  XulEntiusGorge.esp82  xulFallenleafEverglade.esp  [Version 1.3.1]83  LostSpires-Everglade patch.esp  [Version 1.2]84  Anequina-Fallenleaf-Patch.esp85  xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp86  xulChorrolHinterland.esp  [Version 1.2.2]87  xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp  [Version 1.6.2]88  BrewHouse-LostCoast patch.esp89  KragenirsDeathQuest-LostCoast patch.esp8A  xulBravilBarrowfields.esp  [Version 1.3.2]8B  xulLushWoodlands.esp  [Version 1.3]8C  xulAncientYews.esp  [Version 1.4.1]8D  xulAncientRedwoods.esp  [Version 1.6]8E  xulCloudtopMountains.esp  [Version 1.0.1]8F  KragenirsDeathQuest-CloudtopMountains patch.esp90  xulArriusCreek.esp  [Version 1.1.2]91  xulPatch_AY_AC.esp  [Version 1.1]92  xulRollingHills_EV.esp  [Version 1.3.2]93  MMMMWL-RollingHills patch.esp94  KragenirsDeathQuest-RollingHills patch.esp95  xulPantherRiver.esp96  xulRiverEthe.esp  [Version 1.0.1]97  xulBrenaRiverRavine.esp  [Version 1.0.2]98  xulImperialIsle.esp  [Version 1.6.2]99  xulBlackwoodForest.esp9A  NRB4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp  [Version 2.1]9B  Castle_Seaview.esp9C  CastleSeaview+LostCoast Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]9D  bartholm.esp9E  Bartholm-Panther River Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]9F  Harvest [Flora].esp  [Version 3.0.0]++  Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.0.0]++  Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp  [Version 3.0.0]A0  Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp  [Version 3.0.0]A1  EVE_ShiveringIslesEasterEggs.espA2  Kyoma's Journal Mod.esp  [Version 3.2.0]A3  Real Hunger, Cobl.esp  [Version 1.6.1]A4  RealSleepExtended.esp  [Version 2.3]A5  SupremeMagicka.esp  [Version 0.89]A6  SM_ShiveringIsles.esp  [Version 0.86]++  SM_DLCSpellTome.esp  [Version 0.80]++  SM_OOO.esp  [Version 0.89]++  SM_MMM.esp  [Version 0.89]++  SM_COBL.esp  [Version 0.86]A7  SM_EnchantStaff.esp  [Version 0.80]++  SM_Scrolls.esp  [Version 0.84]++  SM_SigilStone.esp  [Version 0.83]A8  MidasSpells.espA9  SM Combat Hide.esp  [Version 1.1]AA  Enhanced Grabbing.esp  [Version 0.4]AB  kuerteeNPCsYield.espAC  nGCD.espAD  nGCD Oghma Infinium.espAE  ProgressMBSP.esp  [Version 2.0]AF  ProgressRBSP.esp  [Version 1.0]B0  ProgressRacial.espB1  Let There Be Darkness - Knights.espB2  Let There Be Darkness - Cyrodiil + SI.espB3  Let There Be Darkness - Mehrunes Razor.esp++  Item interchange - Placement for FCOM.esp  [Version 0.76]++  Item interchange - Placement for Frostcrag.esp  [Version 0.76]++  Item interchange - Option, Ingredients in Bulk.esp  [Version 0.76]B4  CuteElf11.esp  [Version 1.2]B5  bgBalancingEVCore.esp  [Version 10.52EV-D]B6  bgMagicEV.esp  [Version 1.7EV]++  bgMagicSpellTomes_for_WryeBash.esp  [Version 1.68EV]++  bgMagicItemSigil.esp  [Version 1.68EV]B7  bgMagicBonus.esp  [Version 1.7EV]++  bgMagicEVAddEnVar.esp  [Version 1.68EV]B8  bgMagicEVPaperChase.esp  [Version 1.68EV]++  bgMagicEVNoSorting.esp++  bgMagicEVStartspellsNoSorting.esp**  bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversity, Vanilla.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D]B9  bgBalancingOptionalNoRaceDisp.esp  [Version 9.0UV-U]BA  bgBalancingEVLAMEAddition.esp  [Version 10.51EV-D]++  bgBalancingEVLAMEGlue.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D1.62EV]**  bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversityLAME.esp  [Version 10.5EV-D]BB  bgIntegrationEV.esp  [Version 0.962]++  EVE_KhajiitFix.espBC  Better Cities Full - B&M Edition.espBD  BCBravilB&MFULL-Barrowfields patch.espBE  Better Cities - Brew House.espBF  BCChorrol-ChorrolHinterland fix.espC0  Better Cities - No LEYAWIIN Flooding.espC1  Better Cities - Thievery.espC2  Better Imperial City.espC3  Better Cities - Old Crow Inn.espC4  Better Cities - COBL.esp  [Version 0]++  bgMagicEVNoSummonGlow.esp  [Version 1.62EV]C5  NRB4 Standard Road Record.esp++  Cobl Filter Late MERGE ONLY.esp  [Version 1.53]C6  Cobl Silent Equip Misc.esp  [Version 01]**  All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.espC7  Bashed Patch, 0.espC8  MergedMaps.espC9  FormID Finder4.espCA  Streamline 3.1.esp

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:04 pm

...

Those numbers usually happen if a mod sets the stat(s) to a negative number. I'll check Real Hunger and make sure it won't do that. BTW, was this 2 days while sleeping, hibernation potion, or just running around?

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:15 am

Those numbers usually happen if a mod sets the stat(s) to a negative number. I'll check Real Hunger and make sure it won't do that. BTW, was this 2 days while sleeping, hibernation potion, or just running around?

Actuallly, just waiting. I was doing some tests with the new version of All Natural, so I was waiting for around 7 hours, each time... everytime I heard my stomach growl. Then about two days of waiting, my character colapsed and started to have convulsions or something that seems like that. Not sure if makes any difference, but I have my timescale set to 8.

Btw, should I get that bad for two days of hunger? : )

Thanks!

» Fri May 27, 2011 1:14 pm

That took a while - I've uploaded a Proposal for loot/drop/merchant changes to TesNexus. This is based on the patches migck, Vacuity and CorePC have created. Basically, this is a "fix" proposal - everything has been updated to the latest OOO and MMM, a few new things have been added but nothing ground shaking. Here's the readme

**** TEST FILE ****
This should be considered a test file. If you use these file, you may need to make a clean save before using the next version/proposal of Cobl. This will erase any Cobl otpions that you have set, as well as any recipes if you're using Alchemical Formulas. Backup your old files before installing.

**** Background ****
This is a proposal for some massive updates to Cobl's leveled lists. Which means you'll see more TI ingredients (but a little less out of place), Coleen/Farmer's Market foods, and a bunch of other loot-type stuff. Grunt work provided by migck, Vacuity, CorePC and haama. (The latter being the final author - apologies if I forgot some things.)

For players you'll see:
* Alchemy merchant changes: The ingredient numbers will look a little more normal now (but there can still be a handful of 10s and 20s and even 50!). Mages guilds, Sinderion, and a few other merchants will have a wider selection of Tamerial ingredients to choose from. The Bravil Mages Guild and Arcane University now carry TI ingredients, and if you look real closely you'll find a barrel in Skingrad's Mages Guild.

*More ingredients on certain creatures: You'll find TI ingredients on new creatures now, as well as some added variation (liches can once again drop Bonemeal

). This affects Spriggans, Liches, Golems (from MMM and OOO), Horses, Wolves, Wraiths, most Daedra, Trolls, Giants, Khajit, Necromancers and any other evil NPCs carrying ingredients, Gargoyles (MMM) and a few other things here and there in MMM and OOO.

*Updated MMM and OOO patches: These have been updated for the most recent alpha versions so you should only see Cobl versions of items now (no more random OOO Ayelid coins). I think they won't explode if you use them on older versions.

*Tweaks, MMM patch and OOO patch set up to match each other better: Meaning, choose whichever best matches your setup. If you don't have OOO or MMM, use Tweaks. If you have MMM, use the MMM patch and likewise for OOO. For FCOM players it gets a bit trickier - the final version will have a FCOM specific file, but for now turn off "FCOM for COBL" and load both the MMM and OOO patch with the MMM patch loaded last.

It also means you'll find a lot more Cobl items out in the world: Ayelid coins, books, more ingredients, etc.

*Farmer's Market food: You'll find some good home-cooked Slaughterfish Chowder in the city inns now... and even some Farmer's Market food you'd actually want to eat! If you're in Shivering Isles, you should see a lot of Grummites... and a lot of Grummite Pie.

For modders:
*Tamerlic Ingredients: More TI leveled lists, including normal "all" lists that have only 1 of each ingredient. Modified TI loot lists (now called Drop lists) so the player doesn't always get that Giant blood. Of note, the Tomb list was changed into an Evil list (carried by evil Necromancers) and a new Tomb list was created. More TI containers and options to add TI ingredients to merchants.

*Coleen's: Created a leveled list and container to make the food available to merchants.

*A chance to see what I've been working on all this time

I've been working on it, but I had to learn as I went too... and making sure all the Ayelid coins are accounted for takes a while... oh, and detangling the web of leveled lists, their container and/or NPCs, to see just where the player would see everything takes a while

Please take a look in TES4Edit, and make sure I've got all the requests in correctly, and in general comment!

Let me know what you think, what I missed, and what more should be done.

Of course, though, I'm already thinking of Proposal 2 which will require some ground shaking

(about to fall asleep, will make this brief) There are 2 types of TI ingredients - those that are natural and should have already been in Oblivion (i.e., Iron fillings, Pure Water) and those that are imported (i.e., Comberry Leaves, Kwarma Cuttle). The first group should be better integrated with original loot so you see it more - after all, there is pure water in Oblivion :hehe: This also means when MMM/OOO adds creatures such as Guars and Gargoyles, Guar Hides and Gargoyle Horns should be considered natural and included in more loot.

On top of that, I'd like to flesh out a distribution network for the importers. So far, I'm thinking of different groups of imports - those intended for merchants (limited by cash flow, but rarity isn't major issue), nobility (only want the useful), guilds (Mages guild wants particular ingredients for study), smugglers (evil type ingredients), and maybe bandits who raid the import caravans/ships. From there, it spreads out through customers (divided into Food, junior and senior Alchemists), cooks, thieves, and Necromancers/etc. who want the good, powerful stuff. Also, monsters can travel a good bit of distance and can bring in new ingredients. (i.e., Spriggan).

In modding terms, this would mean a bunch of new leveled lists, depending on how the person/creature got the ingredients. Merchant, nobility, smuggler, illegal (Necromancers) would all have different tastes and wants, and so should have different sets of ingredients.

[oh junk] I forgot to mention that there were a few things I proposely left out of this proposal (mostly because I'd meant to wrap this up last week):

Boar hides and other misc items: MMM uses the boar hides for crafting, so you'll want MMM's version of boar hides. We can change it so you can use Cobl's, but there's a few options.
Drinks: Those are actually pretty complicated - lot of lists that appear in a lot of places, so I left it alone for now.
More common items: MMM and OOO had Platinum coins and Lion meat, and probably a whole slew of other common items. I'd like to add them to Cobl so we can share
And probably others - getting sleepy :zzz:

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:53 pm

WOW Haama! I've wanted the TI to be better distributed for such a long time. I've even made my own small patches but what you propose is simply awesome. Can't wait to try it out. THANKS A LOT!

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:20 pm

WOW Haama! I've wanted the TI to be better distributed for such a long time. I've even made my own small patches but what you propose is simply awesome. Can't wait to try it out. THANKS A LOT!

Remember to thank migck, Vacuity and CorePC too

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:59 am

Hey, this is great! Maybe add the additional warning to empty the COBL containers when clean saving; I was just thinking of the "Bile" thread :hehe:

Thanks team!

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:35 am

Hey, this is great! Maybe add the additional warning to empty the COBL containers when clean saving; I was just thinking of the "Bile" thread :hehe:

Thanks team!

Good catch - will need to add it.

----
Lore-hounds, are your ears burning, because I have a few questions. From reading up on Tamriel at UESP and this http://imperial-library.info/maps/cyrodiillargelowrescr7.jpg, I've made a few deductions about importing to Cyrodiil and would like some comments from those who have given more than my couple of hours

.

There are four origins for the Tamrielic ingredients in Cobl: Hammerfell/High Rock (Daggerfall), Vvanderfell (Morrowind), Mournhold (Tribunal), and Solstheim (Bloodmoon).

Hammerfell/High Rock: All of these ingredients would come from the Hammerfell city of Radhir. They would flow through Anvil via ship. However, they can also use the road down to Anvil, continue through Skingrad to the IC. There might also be some trade between Elenhir and Chorrol, but it doesn't seem to be a major trade city.

None of the ingredients seem strictly illegal, though some may be rarer than others. Actually, ingredient drops in Daggerfall were pretty weird - you could get any of the ingredients from any enemy (but some were rarer than others). So, it would be hard to split these into, say, Hammerfell vs. High Rock ingredients.

As the natural inhabitants, Redguards would most likely have these ingredients.
Vvanderfell and Mournhold: House Hlaalu are the predominant traders, so more than likely most ingredients would flow from Vvanderfell to the Narsis, the House Hlaalu capital (?) city and closest port (I assume Omaynia isn't a port). Narsis is also near Mournhold, so all Mournhold ingredients would flow through it. From there, they would go through the Valus Mountains to Cheydinhal. From comparing distances and in-game travel time, I think it would take 8-10 hours to go from Narsis to Cheydinhal, so I doubt they would continue on to IC. The Valus Mountains may be a hard path, but the alternative is to go south to Black Marsh (Stormhold), then west to the Yellow Road, then north to the IC - this latter path is longer and only goes through 1 major city as opposed to 2 in the Valus Mountains. No one would go through Skyrim as House Redoran and the Nords/Orcs of Skyrim are at war.

Ebony and Moonsugar are very much illegal, so they would need to be smuggled in. Raiding Morrowind tombs is illegal, so any tomb-type ingredients would??? There doesn't seem to be much in the way of tomb ingredients (Corpus Weepings) and I only remember finding Bonemeal in them. More importantly, though - should I assume that it would be illegal to sell them in Cyrodiil, to carry them around Morrowind??? For smuggling, the southern route might be preferable.

The Camonna Tong have a great deal of influence on House Hlaalu, are at war with the Thieves Guild and are generally xenophobic. I'm thinking, then, the Thieves guild won't get any Morrwoind ingredients (at least, not from smugglers). Also, the Dark Brotherhood is at war with the Morag Tong - therefore, they can't get any ingredients from Morrowind themselves. I would also go out on a limb and say that House Hlaalu won't trade with them - dangerous and foreign. Falanu Hlaalu (All Things Alchemical) -
Spoiler
Falanu was kicked out of Morrowind for Necromancy, which House Hlaalu seems OK with. So, I think she would still get Morrowind shipments. I also think she should have Necro/Tomb ingredients for sale if she likes you or you've talked to her about the Daedra Cult.

As the natural inhabitants, Dunmer would most likely have these ingredients.
Solstheim: They could ship ingredients south to Blacklight (Redoran stronghold) and on to Cheydinhal, or south-west to Winterhold and on to Bruma. As mentioned before, House Redoran is at war so it seems unlikely to ship to Blacklight. Also, the Winterhold path goes through the Skyrim capital, Whiterun.

Imperials may hold Fort Frostmoth on Solstheim, but the trade route is through Skyrim. So, I'd assume Nords would most likely have these ingredients.
Moonsugar: Should I assume this is imported from Morrowind (game in which it appeared), or the Khajit homeland (Elsweyr)? If so, then I should assume they go through Leyawiin.
Trade within Cyrodiil: The main question here - would importers carry their goods to every city, sell them to traveling merchants in the first city (that will spread them throughout Cyrodiil), or take it to the Imperial City and any cities on the way? Cyrodiil is fairly small, but would take a while to traverse. Every city save Anvil and Leyawiin take less than 5 hours to get from the IC Market District; Anvil takes 8 hours and Leyawiin takes 16. For the most part, you can get to the IC in a day from the mentioned major cities in nearby provinces (Narsis, Radhir, Whiterun). However, it would take about a week to cover all of Cyrodiil: 1 to get to the IC, 2 days for Leyawiin, 1 for Chorrol, Anvil and Skingrad, 1 for Bruma and Cheydinhal, 1 to go back home.

I'm thinking mostly about the last option - bring it to IC. Imperial City would have the best chance of off-loading the stuff. Also, I'd assume there would be a fair bit of contractual/steady business with the shops and nobles there, so you'd want to be sure the merchandise got there. From there, traveling merchants would buy from the importers and sell to the other cities.

The 2nd option is good, too, though - the Cyrodiil merchants would take it off the importers hands at the first city. After all, why shouldn't Cyrodiil middle-men profit instead of everyone else? Or, at least, every other part of Tamriel seems cut-throat business-wise, so I'd imagine Cyrodiil would be too.

In terms of gathering local, Cyrodiil ingredients and dividing Cyrodiil into regions: I don't think there's a reason to make regional ingredients. It takes less than 24 hours to go from one end of Cyrodiil to another, so people can move around quite freely. There might be a few specialized hunters who stick to a certain set of woods, etc. but that wouldn't affect what ingredients they have (i.e., all woods have wolves). I might divide it into areas, though - woods (flora and fauna), caves, ruins, Oblivion. A woodsman probably won't gather cave ingredients.
Monster networks - two parts to this: Trade and Migration
- Trade - do Giants like raw human, or do they sprinkle on a little Saltrice? Likewise, do Daedra carry ingredients? Are monsters such as Hungers and Scamps smart enough to trade (Creeper, anyone)? Would Will O' the Wisps, Imps, Minotaurs carry ingredients?
- Migration - do monsters tend to migrate? Would Spriggans travel from Solstheim to Cyrodiil, thus carrying Hollyberries with them? Do some monsters use magical travel to go anywhere they damn well please? Do goblins travel (though they'd be a good example of trade too)?

[edit 5:50] - Added Falanu (All Things Alchemical), Hammerfell -> Chorrol, Daggerfall ingredient chances, and general Cyrodiil notes.

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:35 pm

Very cool thinking and progress on this.

I've been using MALO: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25981 which has support for Giskard/Dragon Captions mods.

So I'm very curious to see how this develops.

Looks neato

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:06 am

No particular comments on the other part at present. Let me think on/digest it first (sorry, also haven't check the test file yet).

I do have comments for this one though:

[*]Monster networks - two parts to this: Trade and Migration

Trade - do Giants like raw human, or do they sprinkle on a little Saltrice? Likewise, do Daedra carry ingredients? Are monsters such as Hungers and Scamps smart enough to trade (Creeper, anyone)? Would Will O' the Wisps, Imps, Minotaurs carry ingredients?
Migration - do monsters tend to migrate? Would Spriggans travel from Solstheim to Cyrodiil, thus carrying Hollyberries with them? Do some monsters use magical travel to go anywhere they damn well please? Do goblins travel (though they'd be a good example of trade too)?

II already assumes that Goblins trade rare ingredients, but in their case it is *very* rare and it is only the chieftains and shamans who will be found with the rare imported stuff, even if it's the cheap rare stuff. The way I see it is that goblins will not value things the same way humans will, so if it's something they simply can't get around there then it's going to be a status symbol, even if it's just something pretty worthless to men and mer. To be honest I didn't really see it as trade in the way people typically think of trade (for profit), so much as just a way that tribes interact with each other.
I also assumed that giants, minotaurs and ogres migrated, swapped "treasures" socially (again, a kind of "trade"), and picked up rarities along the way, so they also very rarely carried TI ingredients of all kinds (they're also *quite* powerful enough to deal with most of the creatures that might be carrying the original ingredient).

With regards to scamps, as I understand it, Creeper was very much an exception to the rules: it's implied (and generally accepted?) that he was probably Barbas, Clavicus Vile's hound. The daedra found invading Cyrodiil and in the realms you enter are an invasion force, not a trading convoy, I would be very surprised to find them carrying anything other than the necessities of war.

Other monsters:
Spriggans - I haven't yet looked at what they've got, but I don't really see them carrying a lot of ingredients from *outside* their local area. Aren't they supposed to be guardians of their local bit of nature? Why and how would they get flowers from hundreds of miles away? I suppose there could be a magical explanation. To be honest, I don't think spriggans in Blackwood should be carrying ingredients from up by Bruma or over by the Gold Coast. Unfortunately only one overhaul addresses this kind of localisation and that's still in alpha.
Imps - Too dumb, and while they have wings, I just don't see them as the migratory kind. Just my opinion, of course.
Will o'the wisps - Well, I know a little about these in regular myths and the version that Bethesda has gone for seems to be the mindless, but sentient gas. "It's alive, Jim, but not as we know it!". These things are also quite localised, only appearing in dungeons and in marhes. Big travellers? I think not!

It's nice to see someone else with an interest in thinking this stuff out.

Vac