Thanks for the answer Corepc.

I took down the link down? You mean its no longer available? I have little experience with uploading stuff, but I didn't delete it. Must have been sendspace, maybe its just for quick sending data and purges it after some days... don't know, I'm a noob in upload services.

Don't worry I have the file already and re uploaded to 4shared and notified on our forum so that they can look it over and we can make a decision about it..

Actually you sent me the file via pm, the link still work, Just checked..

Wow, umm... I've been thinking about this one and still haven't come up with any ideas. Are you using OBSE, Oldbilivion, or any other .exe modifiers (pre-empters)? Also, to be clear, v1.71 works fine but not v1.72? (Probably what I'll do is send you several of the pre-v1.72 copies of COBL so we can see which edit is causing the crash.)

Oops, missed this post (and thought the issue was solved with II). In general, it sounds like you got the right idea of what Tweaks does - we might make new lists instead of the old lists (depends on whether II needed them, etc.), but sounds in order and nice

Coincidence of timing - always an easy way to check this: save just before you drop a torch, verify that it doesn't work with v1.72, exit and re-install v1.71, see if it works. If all of that holds true, then send the save to haama341@hotmail.com and I'll take a look. I, personally, have completely :brokencomputer: OOO's Drop-lit Torches before (over a year ago) and did so with scripts that didn't even remotely deal with torches

Let us know either way. Maybe we missed a few :shrug:

I contacted NPM78 - he says he got another report about that with MALO and is checking into it.

thanks

I'm still having issues on COBL 1.72 with Luggage locations in Mages Guilds, i.e., they're not showing up. I noticed the earlier post about the script bug and upgraded from 1.71, but no dice. Luggage shows up fine everywhere but the Mages Guilds (though I haven't tried Fighters Guild locations, not being a member).

I can see it in the CS, too, so I suspect a script error specific to Mages Guild placements. I thought it might be a plugin conflict, but a test character with just Oblivion[SI] + Cobl had the same problem.

(Also: Hi everyone. Back from the dead life of parenting. Not back to modding, alas, but I'm playing again.)

EDIT: I'm also having the drop lit torches problem that quartet1977 reported a page back. The only thing changed has been the 1.72 upgrade.

What is your rank in mage guild? it depends on that. You must be higher than Apprentice for it show up..

welcome back..

Oh ho! That's what it is. Right then: a feature, not a bug.

And it turns out that the DLT problem was related to my messing about with mods to test cobl (I missed a check box), not related to version the 1.72 upgrade.

The main consideration is that non-local loot should not (or at least very, very rarely) be found on local bandits, etc. Bandits living the hard life out in the wilderness are not going to be running around with exotic foods from foreign locales. Hence when I put foreign items into the world in Cobl glue, I usually restricted them to vendors (who would occasionally stock foreign items). And for them I factored in location, etc. E.g. Anvil has some stuff from Hammerfall, Nords in Bruma have some solstheim stuff, etc.

However, Vacuity is our leveled list expert. See what he thinks.

Hi, sorry, I've been focused on particle systems and animation so long I've been letting everything else slide.

Here's my take on the tweak file seperated as best as I can:

Creatures:

Roast rat: unless I mis-remember, the roast rat "meat" is actually more of a pie/pastry, so putting it into the roast rat "container" is actually... kinda wierd! Look, there's a rat over a fire, and it's got... pies inside? Yep, just checked, it uses the mutton pastry nif (even comes on a shiny white plate...). Good for buying at a low-class restaurant, not quite what I'd expect to pull out of a rat though.

Horse meat, wolf meat, bear meat: all seems perfectly reasonable to me, I'd be good with this stuff going into the Cobl Tweaks file and adjusting the OOO and MMM Cobl patches to sort things out. Not sure about the Frans Cobl tweaks as I haven't seen Dewshine around for a while (but I haven't been too active here myself).

Bristleback Leather: Is this definitely appropriate for boars? I'm pretty much a lore philistine, so I'm honestly not sure if this is supposed to be associated with a particular creature?

Slaughterfish Fillet: Somewhere I thought this was another prepared foodstuff as well like the roast rat, but I seem to be mistaken. I'll probably be adding this to mod-added slaughterfish in future via II now I know it's a "fresh" ingredient, so I see no reason not to have it in Cobl tweaks as well?

Spriggan Loot: When did Cobl get a Spriggan Loot list? Did I miss this before? Damn, damn, damn. Seems good to me too. Again, this'll probably get implemented into II and the MMM Cobl patch in any case.

Leveled Lists:

Vendor lists: There are two things to bear in mind here: firstly, Cobl already places new vendor chests in many of the vanilla vendors, ensuring that items are placed at (as Wrye said) location- or race-relevant vendors. Secondly, while II hasn't been updated for a while (my fault), Bash has and includes some nifty new functions that I *think* would allow me to break that sacrosanct rule of never editing a vendor's stock chest. I haven't tested this out but PacificMorrowind has assured me that this would work (indeed he was very careful to make 100% sure I was aware of this possibility, bless his heart), which means that II could (and thus probably will) make vendor specific adjustments in future adding in location- and race-relevant wares for sale at (selected) mod-added vendors. Making adjustments to the vendor lists means that items from specific locations are thus available everywhere. Again, things like the beers and books are already for sale at many vanilla vendors and will probably also be added more specifically via II in future to mod-added vendors.

Loot and general lists: To me and my tastes adding the stuff in here the way you have makes it essentially common, everyday stuff. If that's what you want then that's great, however it will have a pretty major effect on the "impact" of Cobl on the game world. Even Item Interchange's extensive tweaks won't make most of the Cobl material anywhere near as common as it will be this way. As I said, if that's how you want it, that's great (one player game and all), but I'm not particularly convinced these should go into the regular Cobl tweaks file.

Wrye/Haama, would you like me to update the Cobl Tweaks file with the animal meat, slaughterfish fillet and spriggan loot adjustments in the meantime? I can have it done in minutes. And I might spit out an II update at the same time if I'm already doing this. Maybe. No promises.

There was also an adjustment to the Bristleback leather model. It seems that the entry in Cobl main.esm is pointing to Clutter\ingredMortFlesh.NIF when it should be pointing to Clutter\Ingredients\ingredBoarLeather.NIF? Might be worth fixing that in Cobl main?

Migck, thanks for the file: it was very interesting to look over, and it's obvious I missed a couple of things somewhere, sometime, thanks for letting me see those.

Vac

Well, since I'm the creator of the mess, at least I ought to give some explanations for my changes:

-Roast rat: ups, it does look like a pie, complete with serving dish and everything...not the kind of thing I would hope to find dissecting a rat. Ok, discarded change

-Bristleback leather: this was found on a creature from the Bloodmoon expansion, the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Creatures#Tusked_Bristlebacks. Ok, I don't even know what "bristleback" means, but given that the creature in Bloodmoon looked like a boar, walked like a boar, sounded like a boar and was (slightly more) annoying as a boar (and smelled like a boar I must add) I thought it would be wise to give their pelt to boars in Oblivion.

-Spriggan loot: Beth guys had a "happy idea" when designing what loot the Bloodmoon spriggans would drop: if you were level 3 or under, you "might" find http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Heartwood, otherwise it would be belladonna. WTF! You can't hope to survive in Solstheim at level 3, at least not if you don't play at -100 difficulty, so this ingredient was virtually non-existent without mods. I made a new loot list including the current spriggan ingredient (taproot) and the old ones (belladonna and heartwood), all can appear no matter your level, but given that heartwood is worth 100 gold, it may need more balancing to make it appear even less often.

-Leveled lists: yep, I'm afraid I've made Cobl stuff too common according to my subjective tastes, so it would be better if those were forgotten and/or heavily changed. I think some things make sense (e.g. I gave SI food lists as many "grummite custards" from Cobl as "smoked baliwog legs" they had, because I guess it would also be a common food there) but for the most part I just wanted to give a slightly high chance of any "flavor" item from Cobl to appear in loot.

Edit: Also, weren't leveled lists changes supposed to go to Cobl glue, and Cobl tweaks deal only with inventories?
hmm, maybe keeping a low impact leveled lists changer file, like "Cobl tweaks, lite", and another one more intrusive like "Cobl tweaks, mad"?

Just a couple of questions (I need to learn exactly how additional merchant chests work).

Can you mention some vanilla merchants where Cobl has added chests? Is it correct that those chests are always owned by the specific merchant, and in the same cell as the shop, in order to work correctly?

One person's mess is another person's http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uSXT_qX0qbc/R1OSHHfJtUI/AAAAAAAAAB0/1X-osfC1BWw/s1600-R/IMG_1930.JPG.

Hah! I figured that was an honest mistake.

Hah, well, I'm not really sure which way I'd swing on that one then? We'll see what others have to say on the subject?


"Ouch!" in multiple regards. It does seem a tad pricey to be dropping often from the relatively weak Spriggan. If it was so easy to get it wouldn't likely be so valuable. I'll hold off on throwing this change into Cobl tweaks just yet in that case and see what other people think again.

Too common for your tastes too? Heh, never mind. The Grummite Custard is a good point though, is there a reason why this wasn't put in the original tweaks file? Aside from the tweaks file not touching SI? Uhh, wait, I think I just answered my own question... I think I can add that into II in some way, it certainly fits II's realm of relevancy. How about that?

Cheers,

Vac

P.S. Just opened the Cobl Tweaks and II files up in TES4Edit; we'll see just how "pronto" I can get this done...

Edit:

I used http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/How_To_Add_Objects_For_Sale when I added vendor chests in ALEX, and they worked perfectly. Very simple and easy to follow.

Seesh, you guys have been busy while I've been working on a comment to Vacuity's first post. Quick question - there were some other edits in the file, such as magick resists, etc. to the creatures. Were these edits MMM makes?

Some of them came from the Unofficial patch, I retained UOP stuff in the file I've linked to on the alpha boards. Other stuff, I've no idea where it came from, I just removed it.

Vac

They're from Bloodmoon boars (which look tough as all hell and have a Greater soul), so I'd be reluctant to add them to normal boars; however, if MMM adds them to the boar then we should too.

Oddly enough, there are no other fish meat items (unless a newer MMM has them), so yes it's the actual raw meat of a slaughterfish ( :yuck: )

It isn't from COBL, it was added in migck's file - seems like a good addition and true to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Creatures#Spriggan. I don't remember how LLs are calculated, but Heartwood should be rare.

Err.. not sure how I feel about this. Does it break the rule for non-Bash users? That is, are you adding the items to the container and fixing it with Bash - if so, then this shouldn't be done. Also, this would add the Bash requirement for players when it's already fairly easy to add items to new containers.

At a glance, I'd agree, but I don't see where these lists are used (TES4Edit doesn't have any "Referenced by" for them).

Yeah, it seems like all of this should be in the normal Tweaks file. Keep in mind, though, that FCOM players won't play with the Tweaks file at all. At this point (still learning), I think they should overlap with each other - that is, Tweaks has the edits and they're copied to MMM and OOO as necessary.

Don't scare me like that I did fix it (unless I uploaded the wrong file).

Sounds good - I'll take a look.

Random thing - I don't think we should mess with the quest Slaughterfish. I think I've seen mods that touch them, and I don't want to create a load-order error for meat on a small portion of the Slaughterfish in the world.

Ermmm... that's me also, I should have removed them before sending the file. My little overhaul actually deals with a lot more of stuff, its basically the core of OOO stripped of all new content. I just chopped out what didn't deal with inventories and leveled lists and sent the file. There were some unused abilities with very self-explainable EditorIDs in the game, which I put to use. If I remember right, boars had an unused 25% magic resist ability, imps a 50% one, and dremora (all ranks) had a 30% reflect damage ability. I can see why that last one wasn't used though, my fights against dremoras have become a pain in the [censored] ever since I added that ability back to them.

Edit: yeah, shouldn't have changed quest-specific creatures. What was I thinking?
Edit2: for some reason TES4Edit doesn't show "Referenced by" records which are only referenced in Oblivion.esm, but they are used. Part of its system to prevent changes to the Oblivion.esm file I guess.

:shrug: Generally they should be (i.e., the MS39 creatures should still have the loot changes), but these are very specific so I'd lean on the side of not changing them.

New question - boar leather, what is it used for? If it's something low level, then let's include it on the boars.

I'll pass for now then.


Wasn't there something in-game somewhere about how nasty they were to eat? Not that I've played much in a long time, but there's a vague memory stirring...


I spotted that shortly after posting, I didn't see how I'd missed anything quite that obvious. The idea's good, but 100 gold ingredients are a little valuable to be dropping off left, right and centre. Or even once in a while, to be honest. Would it be practical to tweak the value?


Err, are you forgetting that II already requires Bash and is completely dependant on Bash features for it to work? And that II *can't* add containers due to how it works?

All over the shop!

Already done with the regular Cobl tweaks file, I promised Core I'd put a new MMM Cobl tweaks file together for him this weekend, so that'll be sorted appropriately in short order.

Probably I have an older version of Cobl sitting in my II development directory. In fact, almost certainly, it was also using version 266 of Bash. Sorry, not so up-to-date with everything...


In that case, the file I've already provided for you should be good. For now anyway.

Vac (is going to bed just now)

Still looking through the old stuff, will get to your file Vac in a bit.

If there was, it's rare in the endless "Crabs are nasty, vile creatures... that tried to attack me on sight"

There are plenty of ingredients worth 100 (salts), so about that rarity and maybe a level minimum. Looking at the ingredient itself - the effects aren't all that great (Restore Magicka and Weakness to Fire are uncommon, but not rare), but the lore has the price tag pretty high, so 100 sounds about right.

Wait, are we talking about II or COBL Glue/Tweaks/Patches?

Alright, night Vac...
btw, I'm going to probably change stuff from your file :shocking:

In particular, for those still awake, I noticed COBL Glue has a lot of the leveled list changes, so it looks like many of the LL changes will be going there. In particular, I like adding Coleen's food to the same lists as Salmo's - they're not placed into the world in any other place, so it's a great idea. On beverages, I think they should remain a high end item as they are now. Might add them to the more general potion lists, but I have to look through them first.

I thought I http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1037455&view=findpost&p=15148566 that Cobl already made the stuff available at vendors and II would make stuff available to mod-added vendors in the future using the new Bash functions.

Please do!


I think that and the Grummite Custard are the major list tweaks to retain, the other tweaks make stuff significantly more common with no obvious reason to me.

Vac

You did, but you stated it while I was hoping between a reply to your first post, migck's replies, the CS, 2 TES4Edits, and news of the TESNexus Comment Overhaul Sorry about that, and am looking forward to seeing vendor edits with II :thumbsup:

----

Speaking of the TESNexus Comment Overhaul - I've set up 3 new sections: Bugs, Discussion (i.e., the frickin' Luggage location), and Feedback, and turned off user-created threads. Let me know what you peoples think - more threads, allow user threads, etc. To be honest, I really like the idea, and, if it weren't for precedence, would like to use TESNexus as the main thread... (just a statement of preference, I'll still respond to a note where ever it may be, except for PES because it's a PITA).

No worries, I'm not at my most graceful minutes after waking up, so I hope I didn't seem abrasive. :rolleyes:


I've never used Nexus for anything other than downloading and uploading mods, personally, and I don't really desire to start checking another board. Anything discussed there will pass me by completely.

Vac

Was finally able to sit down and look over MMM. I'm starting to see why Wrye left this one alone. The extra plugins make this one a bit harder. For instance, it would be nice to change all of the Guar hides to COBL's, however there is still a reference to it in Hunting and Crafting. Hunting and Crafting really makes this impossible for the Misc items - the Boar and Guar hides could be interchanged with COBL's in the sense that they're the same, however HaC adds a script to the MMM versions.

OK, so, before I lose consciousness - focus only on ingredients and leave the Misc Items alone. Ayelid coins for Gems and Gem Dust would be nice, but looks like it'd be a pain to do. Let's go ahead and add the Boar hide to COBL Tweaks - it's a cheap Bear Pelt, so it's not unbalancing. However, for the MMM patch use MMM's boar hide instead of COBL's. (Also, more of a note for myself, we should make the quest script change out COBL boar hides for MMM boar hides, rather than the other way around).

OK, I'm falling asleep, so just one last question - why does the MMM.esp seem to be a copy of the .esm?

Yep, I've got notes somewhere from when I first started making II as to which mods' items took precedence over which other mods' items (following discussions with Wrye, dev and Corepc). With minerals the OOO geomancy stuff took precedence followed by Cobl then MMM Gems and Gem Dust, the pelts and suchlike was prioritised for HaC, followed by Cobl, followed by OOO and the ingredients were prioritised as Cobl, OOO then MMM. The latter set became mostly obsolete between a lot of generic ingredients being added to Cobl and II becoming dependant on Cobl, but the geomancy and HaC stuff still has to be catered for. All of that precedence is already built into the II meta-library, you could always take a look at that for reference.

I assume this is directed to me? I'll do that?

You might be better asking that in the MMM thread! :flamethrower:

Good night!

vac

:whisper:
You couldn't make it replace OOO boar/wolf/deer hides with the MMM ones as well, could you?


I think this is mainly for compatibility with other plugins. For example, FCOM users don't use MMM.esp, only the esm. Also, MMM+OOO users don't use MMM.esp, they use MMM4OOO.esp (and both MMM.esm and MMM4OOO.esm).

As a result, everything has to be in MMM.esm, so that it's all available to FCOM and OOO users, which basically leaves MMM.esp to make leveled list changes/merges and override some changes in the UOP.

Eloise