Err, actually, I should apologize too - what I wrote is a bit jerkish. I had expected the conversation to be a bit more specific (work-around, disaster scenarios, etc.). I do appreciate the sentiment, and I wish I could follow on it, but I can't - there's too much about Cobl that doesn't require OBSE and I have a very vivid image of a snow monkey jumping out of the screen and biting off my fingers so I can't upload to TesNexus (i.e., I'm 99% sure Wrye wouldn't even consider the possibility). Also, I think there are ways to have my cake and eat it too - I can provide support to both groups with minimal effort and error-possibilities.

Again, I was expecting work-arounds (a way to accomodate both groups) and disaster-scenarios (reasons to not split Cobl). That wasn't fair of me to limit the conversation. So, let me step back from it a bit. I'll make comments where needed, but no more "It can't be done" until the conversation is over (or winding down).


----

Polling - There is, unfortunately, no way to accurately poll Oblivion users. The ones who take part in the polls are those who are most comfortable with the forum software, know that there's a community and people willing to listen to them (which is rare for games), and want to spend time on modding in general. Also, the number of users that respond to the poll compared to the number that download the mod are always abysmally low (1 out of 1000 usually). Even so, I did make a poll on TesNexus back in October. It got about 10 responses for the week that it remained near the top of the page and hasn't had a response since.

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The OBSE team has been pretty explicit that they don't want this to happen. They might be willing now that their turn-around time is slower, but I doubt it. However, I have been planning on making my own OBSE plugin that will ship with Cobl (and any mod that wants to use it).

I think we should wait to hear back from the OBSE team about whether the bytecode changes really affect scripts that don't use OBSE features. We've gotten conflicting statements about this.

In the meantime, we can do some independent testing: use OBSE v0018 to recompile all the vanilla game scripts and save them as a plugin, then turn off OBSE and play the game for awhile with that plugin. See if anything actually breaks.

OBSE script replacer esp for Cobl I say, which could be merged and imported in with bash script, etc. That would be the best workaround for everyone once again.

Believe it or not there are alot of non obse users out there still, that use Cobl Features, Would hate to have to force them to have to use OBSE just to enjoy Cobl ,

I can imagaine the comment that would be left. How come I have to use obse now? why does this not work anymore insert example, does it need obse now? My system crashes when obse is activated? can we have a versoin that does not require obse?

My input on that,

A obse script replacer.esp for Cobl - OBSE users would work the best once again. If can be done once again.

yeah this was from a previous post.

and would a non-obse version have fewer features in cobl for non-obse users? or could a script be inserted into cobl to check for obse and only install or initialize what they could use (obse feature would then initiate if it were installed)? or possibly set up for when they bash it, certain things dont carry through?


I made a script that untill I gave the mod a bash tag, the script never went through so it didnt initialize.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding things, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1087872-relz-oblivion-script-extender-obse-0018/page__view__findpost__p__15858220. The way I read scruggsy's post, it's only a few commands from OBSE 17 and 18 that are affected. So it just means that anything requiring OBSE 17 that is recompiled under OBSE 18 will require OBSE 18.

Eloise

It makes it less likely to happen, but more likely to be forgotten and overlooked. Still, other than print I can't imagine anyone adding OBSE functions to an overwrite script, let alone any of the complex parameter ones (that scruggsy listed). And if they do use print they probably use it all over their mod, and players would start a small riot when their mod stops working under vanilla.

Still, I think this is a good discussion to have. Cobl would be much more bug-free, easier to code and easier for modders to use if it were OBSE only, especially with the newer functions (arrays, user-defined functions), however we have to keep backwards compatibility.

There are other design issues to consider as well. For instance, should every new (script) feature be OBSE-only from now on? What about expansions of old features? Recently there was a request to allow grinders to accept items from other mods. I can do this with vanilla coding, but it's (as always) messy - modders would have to use GenericLore as a set of inputs and outputs

if GenericLore.i01 ;Test to make sure Cobl is installed - I don't remember what it was exactly, so just leaving the stub    if GenericLore.IsGrinding        ;MMM - Boar Meat        set GenericLore.rGrinding to BoarMeat        set GenericLore.rGrinded to BoarSausage        set rTemp to GenericLore.GrinderFunctionRef        rTemp.Activate cobGenActRef, 1    endifendif

This would have to be in a quest script that is running every 1/2 second to keep the grinder working correctly.

With OBSE v18 things would be much simpler. The modder would create 2 arrays/lists - one for the Grinding items and one for the Grinded items. Then use a User-Defined Function to register their items.

;Install stuff - for the first time the mod is installed;...let arGrinding := ar_Constructlet arGrinded := ar_Constructlet arGrinding[0] := BoarMeatlet arGrinded[0] := BoarSausageCall cobGrinderRegister arGrinding arGrinded

This would only have to be done once, when the mod is first installed probably, and then they're done. No quest to worry about, no interaction to worry about, no timing issues to worry about, etc.

And we have several more options than one or the other. We could also allow both - a registration for those who want v18 functionality and the GenericLore stuff for vanilla. We could leave it up to the requester to decide. We could handle all old requests as "both" and all new requests as "OBSE only". I could create a kind of "shadow system" for Cobl - the first line of every script is a test to see if the player is using OBSE v18, and if so calls up a User-Defined Function version of the script (this would be very similar to Core's suggestion).

(Because I think I should make a note of this) I've been happy and proud to accommodate both groups for quite a while now. Actually, those scripts have been a lot of fun and interesting to develop. However, the recent OBSE functions are no longer just functions, but whole new ways of handling data and running code. I'm not sure how likely I can continue to support both down the road or even as of now.

----

And now for something completely different - Relz threads! As I've stated before, I really, really like the discussion/sub-threads at TesNexus - they keep things organized and readable. I even created a few for Cobl - and nobody [censored] uses them. I can understand that at TesNexus as there's a big, shiny, red, candy-like button called "Comments" that everyone has used for a while. But what about here?

What I'm thinking about - create a master thread for Cobl that will be used only as a Relz update and links to other Cobl threads (one for bugs, one for Races, one for feature requests, etc.). This would have another advantage too - I'd be the only one commenting on it and only at release time, so it's unlikely it'll ever hit 200 posts. The thread would be the permanent and de-facto thread for Cobl - one link for the readme and other locations, now and forever. Has this been tried before? Would the mods allow it?

Is that something to be concerned about or is it actually a bug in tes4edit?

Looks like a bug. It certainly should be an ENCH, and has always been there and working fine.

ok... not wanting to sound too much like an idiot, what is a replacer script?

a script that simply replaces object with others? or is it a script that can check for the version of obse installed and then swap which scripts to use?

I was following the TES4Edit Cleaning Guide and it recommends cleaning two Cobl Esps (Cobl Glue and Salmo the baker). Does the Cobl Team recommend this? If so, can they be cleaned in the next release?

Cobl Glue should already been clean has I cleaned it already and I checked it against several mods has well, fixed a few position of luggage has well to work better with OOO chest.

Salmo the baker make a lot more change so it should not be done. Some changes are intended once again.

Is there going to be a new version of Cobl out soon?

The TES4Edit Cleaning Guide says this could caused by a CS bug, [which could be reoccurring each time you edit something. (My interjection)]
I cleaned Cobl Glue from 1.72 and either “Remove "Identical to Master" records.” or “Undelete and Disable References.” changed records. Sorry, I don't remember which. But, I'm a novice with TES4Edit, so I may have done something wrong.

Thanks for your advice on Salmo the baker. I will revert to the original.

The original ain't no better... the Cobl version was copied from the original. We managed to fix a couple of the bugs but haven't found the source of all of them (somewhat because debugging it is on the level of functions receiving NULL inputs).

Glue is cleaned for the next version (even got the deleted references).


If people stop dumping their broken computers on me :ahhh:
Sorry, the next version requires a lot of changes and my time is randomly short (by computers, work to be done, sinus infections, etc.). No exact date to give.

Sorry, I meant the backup that TES4Edit makes before cleaning.


Great! Thanks.

Spring is raising havok for me too. I used to get sinus infections all the time. Now I take Ricola (from Switzeland) to keep my sinuses clear.

I had to write up a change-log for the internal version of Cobl recently. Thought you guys might like to see what we've been working on. This is the work of many people - especially CorePC, Vacuity, migck, and a number of people whose edits I have yet to incorporate into Cobl (getting there )

This list is mostly for things to watch out for - things that I've changed and you should see, and hopefully I've done right and you will see. Also, see if you like the reasoning and have a comment or notice something I've missed.=========Cobl Main=========Most of these changes are for modders and you won't see as a player. Still...Tamrielic Ingredient list Overhaul  * Split into Native and Imported ingredients.  * Added many drops for various creatures that should have always had TI ingredients (i.e., Troll Blood for Trolls).  * New vendor containers with much more reasonable, vanilla-like numbers.TI Balance - because of the overhaul, some of the ingredients are more common and easier to get.  * Lowered prices of many ingredients: Basilik Eye, Black Rose Petals, Giant's Blood, Golden Poppy Blossom, Iron Filings, Ivory, Lead, Malachite, Mercury, Saltpetre, Sulfur, Tin Filings, Troll's Blood, White Rose Nectar, Werewolf's Blood, Yellow Rose Petals    * Basic scheme matches vanilla prices and which level you would expect to see them: < Lvl 8, < $10; < Lvl 15, < $65    * So player couldn't make an easy fortune off harvesting low level creatures.  * Change effects of some common ingredients: Black Poppy Seeds, Black Rose Petals, Charcoal, Golden Poppy Blossom, Green Lichen, Horse Meat, Iron Filings, Lead, Malachite, Mercury, Nymph's Hair, Pine Sap, Tin Filings, White Rose Nectar, Wolf Meat, Yellow Rose Petals    * Some I made less uber by changing effects or changing the order of effects: Charcoal, Green Lichen, Horse Meat, Iron Filings, Pine Sap, Tin Filings, Wolf Meat      * This was done mostly to make the usefulness of the effects match the commonality and price of the ingredient.      * Some were also done to make very powerful effects (i.e., Reflect Spell) less likely to get or more painful to use.    * Some were made into pure poisons: Lead, Mercury    * Poppies and Roses - These share a great deal of effects. This allows access to two nice effects (Invisibility and Chameleon) while also taking side effects (Drain Sneak, Weakness to Poison, Paralyze, Damage Speed). There is also a single rare that will tie them together to get both without a downside (Nymph's Hair - and, yes, I was thinking Faerie rather than Greek - shoot me or give me another suggestion).    * Malachite had both Weakness to Poison and Resist Poison... that seems pointless so I changed it. For some reason "Return to Oz" was running through my mind so I gave it Fortitfy Intelligence and Weakness to Disease.Ores - There are now 4 types of ores: Contaminated, Impure, Pure, and Pristine. Your grinding results depend on which one you use...=========Cobl Glue=========And here's where you'll actually see the changes in Cobl Main. Most of this will be a spoiler, but you gotta' know what to look for to know what to test for.Vendors and Tamrielic Ingredients  * You should notice all of these changes instantly - no need to wait for the merchant to respawn their inventory, etc.  * Before you'd see 30 of each ingredient at the merchants. Now they'll look a lot more like vanilla numbers, stacks of 1-3.  * If you get into a merchant's "good graces" they'll offer ingredients from their personal stash. These stashes have much larger amounts of each ingredient and you can expect upto 20 for these (high numbers only for common items, rares are still rare and will only see an extra or two).    * Because dialogue is hard to manipulate in Oblivion, you'll have to use common sense to figure these out. Not quite what I wanted but :shrug:  * You'll also find Native ingredients at each Alchemy merchant. Native ingredients are the ones that could be in Cyrodiil but weren't included in the vanilla Oblivion, such as Pure Water, Wraith Dust, etc.  * The rest of the TI ingredients are imported from the other regions: Mournhold/Morrowind (Tribunal ings), Solstheim (Bloodmoon ings), Vvanderfall (Morrowind ings), and Hammerfall/High Rock (Daggerfall ings)    * You'll find these ingredients at merchants along the trade routes: Mournhold and Vvanderfall - Cheydinhal, IC, Skingrad (Hlaalu only), and Anvil; Solstheim - Bruma, IC; Hammerfall/High Rock - Anvil, Skingrad, IC    * Mages Guild - keep lots of ingredients around  Along the trade routes you'll find rarer ingredients from the region(s). For those not along a trade route (Chorrol, Leyawiin, Bruma) you'll still find common Imported ingredients from all regions. The Arcane University keeps a very large selection of ingredients from all regions, in mass quantities.  * Novaroma (Suurootan in Bruma) - I'm not sure why Wrye added this, but keeping in tradition - she now has Rare Solstheim ingredients.  * You'll find ores and hides at a few vendors.    * Hides: Nord Winds (Bruma), Morvayn's Peacemakers (Anvil), Archer's Paradox (Bravil), Sabine Laul (Chorrol)    * Ores: Hammer and Axe (Bruma), March Rider (Cheydinhal), Dividing Line (Leyawiin)  * Some Thieves Guild fences will offer illegal ores (Ebony, etc.): Imperial City (Fathis Ules), Bruma (Ongar the World-Weary), and Anvil (Orrin)Colleen's Farmer's Market foods  * You'll find Farmer's Market foods (actual, cooked food) in most inns. Really anywhere you can get Salmo's foods.  * You'll find some Farmer's Market foods in random cupboards, etc. where you find regular foods (and Salmo's).Possible conflicts - only the first is new...  * Hlaalu's dialogue has been altered. It's a very particular part of the dialogue, so hopefully no overwrite problems.  * Leveled Lists - food lists, including a few vendor lists  * Bonemeal - should be 0========MMM-Cobl========Massive overhaul - changed the entire system and MMM so Cobl no longer directly edits creatures or NPCs. This means MMM-Cobl can no longer override MMM's factions, it should be safe for all future updates, and item placement is now in the hands of the MMM team. Also greatly expanded the number of creatures and NPCs that now have Tamrielic Ingredients. This, as well as updating MMM so more of its creatures have TI ingredients, as taken the bulk of the time.Updated the Coblizer  * More items are switched from the MMM version to the Cobl version    * Now handles Ayleid coins, Guar and Boar hides, most Gem Dusts - Diamond, Emerald, Gold, Pearl, Ruby, Sapphire, Silver, TopazYou shouldn't need the constant Coblizer quest any longer.  * Before you would find the MMM version of an item (on a body, etc.) and then the quest would switch it to the Cobl version.  * Now you should just find the Cobl version.    * This means you should only have to run the quest once - to change the MMM items to Cobl when you first install it.    * Of course, if another plugin adds the MMM version you'll get the MMM version. I've set up MMM.esm/p, Gems and Gem Dust, and Hunting and Crafting so you recieve the Cobl version. I have no control or knowledge about other plugins - so let me know!Hides - If you're using the Hunting and Crafting plugin, you should be able to use all of the Cobl hides for Native ingredients - MMM makes some ingredients Native, so you'll find them at more Alchemists. These include: Gargoyle Horn, Guar Hide, Durzog meat, and Werewolf Blood.New drops - Many more creatures and NPCs now have TI loot.  * Some of these were simple switch outs - switched the MMM version of an item for Cobl's version.  * Some had new pieces and parts added - i.e., Trolls now drop their Blood as well as their Fat.    * For variety's sake, some of them always drop an item while others drop 0-2 or more.    * The latter was mainly so you can have a chance to get multiple parts (Blood and Fat), but keep an average of 1 item.  * Some had a number of items added    * Moonsugar - technically this should be under pieces/parts because Khajiit are made of Moon Sugar     * As pieces and parts - a Mud golem can drop anything you'd find in a clump of dirt (think of sifting for gold)    * As items they would carry - Smugglers would carry ....drum roll.... ILLEGAL STUFF!!!    (.. snare crash ..)  * Some were expanded lists - i.e., added TI ingredients to the list of items a Conjurer would carry around.    * For various reasons, I tried to match the vanilla lists in terms of how many items to the list and how they level.      * This led to a few questionable items - Heart of Palm on the Mythic list, Resin on the Oblivion list    * Conjurer - Sacrifices to the gods: Meats, Sweets, rare Creature parts (i.e., Ash Salts), Gems, Minerals.    * Mythic - i.e., Nymph Hair. I had to fluff out this list, so I added flora that might have been in ancient Cyrodiil.    * Necromancer - Poisons, Undead parts (i.e., Lich Dust), Tomb list.    * Oblivion - Went with the fire theme of Oblivion, so these include Sulfur, Saltpetre, Resin (ehh), and Daedra Skin    * Tomb - Lichen (moss), Wraith Essence, Bloat (because it's found all over Morrowind tombs).    * Vampire - Bloods, Mushrooms (underground), grave stuff - dust and flora  * Overview *  * Balliwog - added Raw Balliwog Legs  * Bear - switched out MMM's version of Meat for Cobl's  * Boar - switched out MMM's version of Hide for Cobl's  * Conjurers and Blood Moon clan - Daedra Masters have Conjurer lists, others have Conjurer and Necromancer lists    * Some have more ingredients than others    * I simply followed the original MMM placements here - I never did look into the reasoning  * Daedra - added Daedra Skin, chance to get Skin and/or Heart    * Includes Xivilai, Daedroth, Morphoid, Golden Saint, Herne, Clannfear, Blood Moon Warrior  * Dremora Mages - added Oblivion list    * Those with higher Alchemy have more ingredients and a higher chance to drop ingredients  * Durzog - switched out MMM's version of Meat for Cobl's  * Dwemer spider - switched out MMM version of Dwemer Scrap for Cobl's  * Gargoyle - switched out MMM's version of Horn for Cobl's  * Giant - added Giant's Blood, chance to get Blood and/or Heart  * Golems    * Amber - added Resin    * Ebony - added Ebony    * Flesh - added Tomb list (Have you ever managed to raise the dead without some Grave Dust on it??? I didn't think so!)    * Glass - added Glass    * Iron - added Iron    * Mud - added things you would find in a clump of Dirt - basic chemicals (i.e., Arsenic), small Gems and Minerals    * Magma - added Charcoal    * Rock - added Minerals - chance to get Tin or Copper or Lead, etc.    * Water - added Pure Water  * Guar - switched out MMM's version of Meats and Hides for Cobl's  * Haunted Head - added Tomb list  * Horse - switched out MMM's version of Meat for Cobl's  * Khajiit - added Moon Sugar  * Lich - added Lich Dust, chance to get Bonemeal or Lich Dust  * Necromancer - added Necromanceer list  * Slaughterfish - added Slaughterfish Filet, chance to get Scales and/or Filets  * Smuggler - added Illegal items - Moon Sugar, Royal/Mined Ores like Ebony, Dwemer Scrap, etc.  * Spriggan - added Heartwood and Belladona, chance to get Taproot or Heartwood or Belladona  * Tree people - added Mythic list    * Includes Ent, Spider Dryads, Spriggan, Striders, Tree Sprites  * Trolls - added Troll's Blood, chance to get Fat or Blood  * Undead Legion Berserker - added Tomb list  * Vampires (with some Alchemy) - added Vampire list    * Those with higher Alchemy have more ingredients and a higher chance to drop ingredients  * Werewolf - added Werewolf Blood  * Wolves - switched out MMM's version of Meat for Cobl's  * Wraith - added Grave Dust and Wraith Essence, chance to get Ectoplasm or Grave Dust or Wraith Essence

I've also done a good deal of the OOO-Cobl patch. Still on the list - Fix a few errors in the MMM-Cobl lists. Work out how Item Interchange will use the lists. Work out Cobl Tweaks new roles (now mirrors MMM-Cobl and OOO-Cobl, and is basically the vanilla version of those patches). Update the Grinder as mentioned in this thread. Integrate washington's new Morrowind Drinks (meshes only, IIRC). Help Core with the FCOM and MMM4OOO list placements. Organize my list more so I can remember what all needs to be done for this version...

That reminds me - now that we have 4 types of ores, I was wondering if any artist types want to take a crack at meshes/textures for each? Also, a clump of mud/dirt

Sorry for the length of time between versions. This one is a big project and has required a lot of coordination between Cobl and FCOM/MMM/OOO. However, once it's done everything else should be a snap, and the way we're doing this it should http://www.nuklearpower.com/2007/12/04/episode-927-the-mirror-of-your-dreams/.

for the grinder with OOO ingredients, not everything grinds that probably should.
amethyst, opals, some copper, some gold items. might be a few more.


severly looking forward to this, but not so happy with updating mine :brokencomputer:

Edited the info out, in an attempt to minimize the clutter.

@Haama

Yeah, I just noticed that post doesn't make much sense without the title and subtitle I had from my original thread. Sorry about that.

Yep - already got them for MMM-Cobl, will do likewise for OOO-Cobl. Actually, I need to figure out which dusts are the correct ones first (Cobl, OOO, and MMM all have similar but slightly different dusts.)

:huh:

I will help you in the Cobl Races thread itself, so has we do not clutter up this thread. Since we have a Cobl Races thread after all.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1051762-relz-cobl-races-relz

Indeed. Sorry for all the clutter, I'm still new to this forum. Is there a delete post option anywhere? I can't seem to find it.

thanks haama

do you have a list somewhere of the ingredient changes so I can work on mine, if not, no big, just being an impatient bugger

There is so much going on in next Cobl with Overhaul going to be worth the wait, And let hope we will not have to redo this ever again, having to redo inventory items across everything in little bits at a time has been a good system so far , leave me with alot of tes4edit backup's once again. One time I had at least 40 of them. In just a couple hours work once again.

But the system should work quite well not have to redo things once again.

Well worth the wait once again. And getting closer every day has well. Gotta make sure that once released. The only issue that we will be balancing to worry about once again. Too much of this, too little of that, etc..

That's pretty much it for lists - I leave the rest up to a patch and Tes4Edit. Shoot me your e-mail and I'll send you a copy of Main so you can look at it.

No problem - I just wasn't sure if what you were referring to (other than Races at the end of the post).

Sounds awesome. The "regionalisation" of imported ingredients alone is very neat. This will surely be worth the wait. :mohawk: