I'm basically asking whether or not the player character would become Sheogorath (after the SI). Like if the CoC would become exactly like him, and wouldn't retain any of his original self.
Out of game, ofc.

Well, lets start of easy. What do think is Sheogorath and how do you go about becoming him in the game?

It's part of the Shivering Isles expansion.
Sheogorath is the Daedric Prince of madness.

SI Spoilers:

While it's no ironclad rule, I'll say that spoiler blocks are unnecessarily obstructive in the lore forum.

Daedric Realms are the Daedric Princes. Because I find the "CoC goes insane" to be BATW from MY perspective, I'll say that you do indeed become the next Sheog, and I use the lore surrounding Arden Sul as evidence.

Well it's impossible to say what the player ever does and becoming the Prince of Madness, the embodiment of Madness in the Aurbis, certainly requires you to go insane.

That aside though, you light the Flame of Agnon, you drive people insane, you defend the realm, you wear the staff and religialia, you are the duke of mania and duchess of dementia. Somewhere along the line Haskill notes symbolism has great power. You are doing everything Sheogorath does, you might as well be Sheogorath because for all that matters in the world there is no difference.

I believe you become Sheogorath in the sense you pretty much rule the SI however I don't think the CoC became exactly like him. It's not the daedric prince that has to change for the realm, it's the realm that has to change for the daedric prince, the realm is completely dedicated to whatever the prince's sphere is. To illustrate, back when Jyggalag was a daedric prince, the Shivering Isles and it's citizens were completely dedicated to order, when he became Sheogorath the Daedric Prince of Madness the Shivering became completely dedicated to madness. So what is to become of the Shivering Isles depends on the CoC's sphere.

I believe it's a little bit of this and a bit of becoming more like Sheogorath. I do believe that Sheogorath's goal with acquainting the Champion of Cyrodiil further with the Shivering Isles, by learning about the two sides, lighting the Flame of Agnon, going through the Ritual of Accession, rebuilding the gatekeeper even, acquiring the Symbols of Office (it was said that the symbols are very important), so on and so forth, was to further integrate the CoC with the realm, to make him/her more like himself (Sheogorath), in a way. "Walk like him to become him" if you will. He wasn't about to give his realm to anyone, especially someone that would compromise what the Shivering Isles was about (at least one could assume). So I believe Sheogorath's goal with all of that was to create a champion who could, for all intents and purposes, take his place and BE Sheogorath.

But also, I don't think the Champion's own self would be entirely compromised, either. Sure, he or she would more than likely be somewhat different after all is said and done (more than likely insane to some degree), but I don't think the CoC's identity would "dissolve" and they'd be completely 100% Sheogorath, as he was before he turned into Jyggalag. A new Sheogorath, if you will. More a myth-echo of Sheogorath than actually Sheogorath, I think.

But maybe I'm totally off base with all that. Just my 2 cents.

No...the realm IS the prince, and the prince IS the realm. The two are the exact same being. The realm reflects the prince, and the prince you see just his avatar, so he/she appears to be in the form of a comprehensible. When Sheogorath was becoming Jyggy, the realm also was Jyggy. And since realm=prince, you were literally seeing a daedric prince transform before your very eyes. This is also why Jyggy could not appear until the entire realm was order. Only a pocket of madness remained, you the new Sheogorath. And with your pimp cloths and cane in hand, you gave Jyggy a slappin' and the realm no longer was his. Sheogorath had taken control, and reflect that by reverting the realm back to what it was before Sheogorath become Jyggy

So now, there is a perma-Sheogorath to hold the realm. Jyggy can't do anything. The age of the et'ada are gone and with it, predictability and order have been tossed out the window and burned. Shor made to possibly for mortals to be free of the order that shackled the beings from the previous age. Sheogorath now takes the pure stand of unpredictability with his madness, for that is what now happens in this age.

Yeah, but Sheogorath is an et-Ada, a spirit created from the bloodshed of Anu & Padomay. The CoC is just a mortal. Just because you do everything that somebody else does, doesn't mean that you are that person.

Unless you walk like them until they must walk like you.

If you walk, talk, and look like him; if everyone thinks you are him, then what's stopping you from believing that you are him? One niggling little voice in the back of your head saying "I AM NOT"? Psshhaw, I say. Psshhaw.

Actually, no. Sheogorath is a very special case, since he wasn't even there before the creation of Mundus, much less the interplay of Anu and Padomay. Before Mundus, he was Jyggalag, an et'ada eventually made daedra, who was about complete order and predictability, because during that time everything pretty much had a set order and therefore could easily be predicted to a 99.9999999999999999999999999999...% certainty. However, the creation of Mundus allowed the conception of unpredictability to manifest, and what good is a spirit whose sole sphere is the opposite? He was eventually cursed, or something. I'm not 100% sure, but Haskill and Dyus make it seem that Sheogorath did not appear immediately once Mundus was created. I guess since the daedra reside in Oblivion, they're unaffected by the unpredictability of Mundus, so Jyggy could still predict and follow the order of them with the same certainty as before. Daedra are extremely stagnant, unless they have something to play with.

But the fact still remains that Jyggy transformed into Sheogorath after Mundus was created. This little bit also gives credibility as to why Sheogorath and Malacath are not considered daedra by their fellow princes.

And so what if the CoC is just a mortal. Tiber Septim was just a mortal once too. Same with Vivec. The latter two became gods, with Tiber Septim gaining his through "doing everything that someone else does." What's to say that Sheogorath took that influence, and did the same thing, only for himself so that when Jyggalag comes back, Sheogorath will be there to smash him with his pimp cane.

Given Jyggalag's library predicted both Numidium and Tiber Septim, I'd guess that "unpredictability" wasn't a major problem. It could be, but it seems more likely not than so.


How is it a fact? It comes from an elven creation myth that both Haskill and Dyus disagree with.

I said after, but I am open to before, but that wasn't what I was getting at. The elves claim it was because of Lorkhan's divine spark falling. They (Haskill and Dyus) think the elves are being self-centered and disagree with that part. No where did I say that Jyggy became Sheo because of that. I'm giving credibility that the princes cursed Jyggy into Sheogorath. But then again, thinking about it now, Jyggy should have predicted that the other princes would have attempted to turn him into Sheogorath. Maybe Sheo is a huge anomaly of some sort.

And about how Dyus predicted TS becoming Talos and Numidium..I'm working on it, sorta. So far, it's under the lines of "they're divine. Because of that, they have issues with being quite predicable."

:banghead: Sorry, I misread your post and thought you said he became Sheo when Mundus was created. Given Jyggalag employed a mortal man, Dyus, I think it's safe to assume that you are correct in that he became Jyggalag after Mundus came about.

No problem. I realize that what I wrote what pretty messy, so I can understand the confusion. Late night posting causes me to get sloppy, especially after studying for ~4hours straight. Also, I fixed your post.

I think that the developers simply failed to elaborate concerning the events after SI, and what would happen. After all, everything that does happen after doesn't make sense. The only thing that would seem to make sense is that you become Sheogorath, and your character ceases to exist.

elaborate

Characters usually don't exist as themselves after you erase the save files....or you know, play the next game. There are many names for the Eternal Champion, Neverevarine, Neo-Sheogorath, and the poor bastard that got smashed by Numidium, but it doesn't mean much in the sequel.

What's wrong? In retrospect, some will say he was a great mage. In others, they'll say he was a master thief. In still others, they'll say he was Sheogorath. In even others, they'll say he was a power-hungry Vampire who slowly took over the power structure of the Imperial Province with some unknown support by the Court of Madness. Or was that last one just me?

The Coc became Seogorath. The power of Seogorath became the powers of the Coc. this is how no future games will ave a run in -- he might talk to you at a shrine, but you won't see him or anything.

Anybody else think it would be pretty kickass to have a daedric shrine quest in TES V where you interact with the CoC? It could happen, I dont see any lore screw ups there.

But that's a pretty cliche and expected thing to do.

Perhaps not a lore screwup, but certainly a continuity screwup in that everybody's CoC is different--would have a different personality, voice, agenda, etc. But I suppose it could be done, depending on the extent to which the CoC has become Sheogorath...

If anyone is interested in fleshing out the concept more fully & ruminating on the possibility of taking the mantle of an 'incarnate'
I'd suggest the Piers Anthony novel On a Pale Horse
For those that have read it, this is how I resolve the CoC/Sheogorath issue
For those that haven't read it,
Here's a snippet of a review


On A Pale Horse is book 1 of the Incarnations of Immortality, but don't be intimidated by the prospect of buying all the others because this one's a heavyweight all by its lonesome (it's the only one I've personally read so far). The main character is Zane, who is forced to take over the position of Death when he accidentally shoots and kills the previous Death (who had the misfortune of barging in a bit prematurely during Zane's suicide attempt).

In other words "The Clothes make the Man"