You're half right...the "to the benefit of the Enclave" half. I'll say it again- they never offered anything, just waited until almost all the work was done then walked in making demands. And killing people when they didn't get what they wanted, when they wanted, on their terms. If that's the best the Wasteland could do for a government, the Wasteland is better off going it alone than with a jack-booted thug of a government imposed at gunpoint. The only America the Enclave is interested in restoring is Corporate America.

Yea, alright, they didn't offer anything. Did the Brotherhood though? No. Not until Doctor Li was banging the door to the Citadel down, did they let them in. Sure, they made demands. They are the government, and it is their right, if the people don't like it, they can move to Canada. Sure, Autumn killed Janice Kaplinski without a second thought, and it wasn't good, I won't disagree, but Janice herself claims to know jack-[censored] about Science when you ask her "Whats your story?", she was pretty useless to begin with, so, it doesn't really matter. They took in Anna Holt pretty well, another thing to note.

And how could you say Enclave is only trying to restore corporate America? Have you even heard a single of Eden's speeches on Enclave Radio? He has promised to restore schools, baseball teams, and so much other stuff, that's good for the future of the country. He wants America to be like it was in the Pre-War days. If he's lying, we can only give him the benefit of the doubt, as he hasn't acted to the contrary in any way, simply because he wasn't given the chance to.

Would that be the Brotherhood that according to Li and James defended the work area around the Purifier before the project stopped around the time of the Lone Wanderer's birth?

Not that I'm claiming them as White Knights by any stretch...there's not a Power Armored faction in the Wastes that's anything more than an equipment warehouse to me, they're all just different degrees of "self-absorbed cult." The BoS is simply "the least of three evils."



Which is precisely my point about them not caring about the illusory "trying to rebuild America" claim. They're not trying to restore government "of the people, by the people, for the people" but "government of the people, by the ruling extremist elite, for the ruling extremist elite, and anybody that doesn't like it can bygod haul ass!"



Are you trying to prove your point or mine? Because you're doing a fine job of proving mine. Yes, they'll take in anyone who will kowtow to their Master Plan, and have no qualms about annihilating anything that gets in the way of their plans for total domination. As you just pointed out.



Eden? The insane propaganda computer? Yes, I've heard his calculated drivel. It all sort of comes apart when he's easily convinced to self-destruct because it's so easy to show him multiple flaws in his plan. As in once he realizes that what he's doing is what I'm saying he's doing, he commits suicide. He realizes what a load of hooey he's spreading, and can't "live" (inasmuch as a VAX AI lives) with the knowledge. He himself realizes what a hypocritical butcher he is and does the only honorable thing left at that point- which makes him better than Autumn, who deludes himself to the very end.



He's spun a fine politician's tale of "I care about you," based on a study of a long long list of politicians- and we all know about politicians' promises, now don't we? How many schools has he actually restored? If he's got the manpower to take over the Purifier and raid Vault 87 for the GECK, surely he could get at least one going. How many baseball teams has he fielded? How much of his propaganda has he done anything visible about, and how much of it is just talk? Actions speak louder than words.



Wow. So poisoning the wasteland's water supply isn't acting to the contrary of wanting to "rebuild America?" It sounds more like someone else's attempt to rebuild Germany by eliminating all the "undesirables" so that "the elite" can rule as they were meant to once all the "inferiors" are removed. An attempt to "purify" America so it can be the shining home of the Master Race. And in both Eden and Autumn's case, plenty of clear action to make sure only their chosen Master Race has any say or wields any power.

To be fair, I do not really care for Eden's genocide. He wants a new world, sure, but also with completely new people. Fine, I accept that, but I disagree with him anyway. Not that it's a bad plan, per se, but I think there are better ones.

Autumn is the way to go. He's a man who gets thing done, and for obvious reasons, has a lot more control than Eden did. I trust that the Colonel would distribute water across the country.

As Assassin said, the Enclave aren't trying to get the purifier to work, as such, they're trying to use it so people can see hope in the Enclave... can believe in them. Yes, Autumn killed Janice (not that I totally agree, but who cares?), though you've got to understand that if people have trust in their government and can love them, it'll help a lot in restoring the nation. Look at the BoS, they have trouble getting the water across the wastes -- this would not be a problem for the Enclave.

And these 'undesirables', well, they would not just be wiped out if Autumn were in charge. Personally, I reckon they'd be use for labour work... what's wrong with that? They're not worth much else.

I really don't see what's wrong with the Enclave having full control until the rest of the country's populace gets back on its feet. Then we can offer a little more freedom, but until that time comes, it's good to have a strong, sturdy government. You could call it a dictatorship, if you like, but it wouldn't be all terrible communist-Russia like (I thought Stalin was pretty bad, but my history may be way off here), but more like Germany when the Kaiser ruled. Not saying the country would be run like Germany was then, but the people had no problem with how it was -- that's our aim.

So, basically, there needs to be a fair amount of control because the wastelanders and such have no one to guide them, but when they understand, they will have access to a greater degree of freedom.

Oh, and even under Eden's rule the Enclave soldiers in the wastes still offered free purified water to those taking part in genetic screening.... yeah, evil. I'm not just spouting out drivel here; you can read it on terminals.

I do respect you, Alois; you're clearly very intelligent and you put forth a strong argument, but it will never be enough to change me. Pity, really, you can have been so useful....

History is filled with people who "got things done." Stalin. Mao. Hitler. Mussolini. As for whether Autumn would distribute water, that'll be addressed shortly as we do have precedent from which to draw conclusions.



That's called "propaganda." Letting someone else do something that benefits "the people," then seizing it and claiming credit as if you've done something yourself. "Look, we bring you fresh water! What? Oh, ignore those corpses at the Purifier, it is we who bring you this water! Of course the end justifies the means!"



And those who don't trust and love get a blasma bolt. "Damn rabble-rousers, how dare they not accept that we know what's best for them? They'll love us or else."



Nope, dissent is not a problem for jack-booted thugs who brook none and respond to it with extermination.



And thus begins the rise of the dictator, declaring who is and isn't worthy. With Eden, who is Enclave material and who dies. With Autumn, who is Enclave material and who is slave labor. Same old story, same old song and dance: "You're either with us 100%, or you're against us." You're treading a fine line yourself, you know- daring to question any facet of the Master Plan of Eden still marks you as a potential troublemaker. You might want to be careful who you let hear you say that.



Of course the people have no problem with it. Well, at least those who learn quickly enough to pretend they've no problem so they don't end up like those who dare question The Elites.



Translation: "Once the people learn to whom they must bow, they will be allowed the illusion of freedom- so long as they remember to whom they owe everything." Uh, yeah. "We pledge allegiance, to the Overseer, to whom we owe our very existence..."



Aye, he did use free water to lure people in so his goons could decide which were worthy of living. Right, nothing evil about that. "Here, come get your free water. And if the tests prove you're viable as a member of the Master Race, we'll let you live long enough to enjoy it." Of course it would be soooooo much better under Autumn- where the genetic inferiors need not fear death but could look forward to a nice harsh life of slavery in exchange for a quick drink of water. A bargain at twice the price, eh?



Oh, I've all the respect in the world for your choice and opinions. I find it questionable, but unlike the Enclave I respect people's right to make their own decisions.

My respect for the intolerant group you've chosen to side with, who only respect one view: the "correct" view of them as the Master Race as defined by their head honcho, is nonexistent. History has shown us their ilk before, and given human nature it will probably continue to do so as long as humans exist.



Oh rest assured, I would not ever be of any use whatsoever to The Master Race but only a thorn in their side so long as I draw breath. And given what's happened to their Great Leader, his understudy, and two of their bases of operations (all at my hands), I'm one hell of a thorn indeed.


"Those who know what's best for us must rise and save us from ourselves"
-Rush, "Witch Hunt"

Where is this reserve of Enclave power? The Lone Wanderer broke the back of the Enclave in the East, and the Chosen One did the same in the West. Where, exactly, can all the Enclave's resources be found? It's not mentioned in the game.

Raven Rock is a smoking ruin, and the Air Force Base is a graveyard, the mobile crawler a twisted wreck. There is a long line of dead Enclave soldiers behind my character, stretching into the distance as far as the eye can see. Colonel Autumn, is a fugitive with a shattered dream, defeated. If he is the man of honor you think he is, he should metaphorically fall on his sword: put that pistol of his to his head and pull the trigger. But the truth is, he's a villain. A good villain, who I can respect on one hand, but absolutely hate on the other. So he'll slink away and rebuild the Enclave, so we can meet him and defeat him again in Fallout 4, 5 or 6.

All this Enclave propaganda is amusing, but impotent. To quote a dictator who bears resemblance to your dictators, "political power flows through the barrel of a gun". Well, Enclave, my gun is smoking hot.

Meh, I can never call a group who can't stop one man from each coast from destroying their strongholds 'powerful'

The Enclave as a whole is just a disillusioned people who's only difference from other post-war survivors is genetic code and a little fancy tech. While their tech IS impressive, being inside their bases always depressed me. They were all so dreary and cold feeling.

On a lighter note, is it possible to mez Autumn and dress him in a slave collar? That way you would be able to get his stuff and visit him in a cage at Paradise Falls when you feel like a trip out to the zoo!

To defend Eden's perspective; progress warrants sacrifice. The progress would be to rebuild America, the sacrifice would be to kill everyone in it, so they can start a-fresh.
It's not the best plan, it's not the most peaceful, it's not easy either, but Its what he believes must be done.

Autumn on the other-hand, wants to rally together the Wastelanders, not kill them, which I believe is admirable all the same, perhaps use them to help in the rebuilding process, It hasn't been said for sure anywhere in-game though. Only possible flaw I could see in this plan would be that there might be an uprising from the 'im-pure'.

Yes, America won't be the 1980's America we all recognize now, on the first day Autumn is in power, but it will be eventually. He is taking the first, the hardest step, in which there will be gritty turmoil and hardship. It will be worse than ever, at first. People will hate him for it, people already do, but in the end, if everything goes according to his plan, maybe after ten years, maybe after a hundred years, America will turn back into what it was in the Pre-War days. Harsh circumstances call for harsh measures, Autumn recognizes that, and he is acting upon it. Who else is acting upon it? Which faction is willing to take control of the Wastes the way Enclave is? No one. No one is willing to take a stand. That makes them better than everyone, even if they are hated for it.

As always, your propaganda is based on the biggest word in the English language: if.

No one willing to take a stand? Laughable. The Lone Wanderer took a stand- and handed the entire Enclave their ass on a silver platter.

Took down Eden, by talking him into offing himself. (He obviously was the smartest one of the bunch after all, it seems.)

Put a well-deserved bullet into the void between Autumn's ears.

And took down not one, but two entire bases filled with their ineffectual lackeys.

To put it another way- I kicked the entire Enclave's ass, lock, stock, and two smoking barrels.


If they're the best America can field, we're better off fading into well-deserved obscurity. Fortunately, they're not the best America can field. The best America can field stomped them. I stomped them.

So did I. So did Assassin. So did everyone else who's played the game because they had no choice. But that's not the point right here. We're not talking about the game, to be honest, we're talking about goals and beliefs.

I don't see this going anywhere, because neither side is going to be convinced, but I guess the debates are fun (even if I haven't been too involved in this one. Sorry.) :foodndrink:

And I think talking Eden into ending the Enclave was one of the stupidist things ever.

LW: "How can you tell what the Enclave is doing is what's right? You're insane.''
Eden: "What choice do we have?''
LW: ''Yah, but this isn't the way to go.''
Eden: ''All right, all right, fine. You'll have your wish. I'll end the Enclave.''
LW: ''Cool. Oh, and kill yourself, too.''
Eden: ''Kk.''

<_< Really, this ZAX is a highly intelligent super computer -- Bethesda could have done better than that. Or not have that speech check at all.

True...still don't agree with the 'Clave's. Far too much distance between their claimed goals and their methods' implications.



No big thing, nothin' wrong with being stubborn. I'd be one major-league hypocrite if I felt otherwise, given my tendency to have mules lined up outside wanting lessons. :foodndrink:



LOL Don't even get me started...for all the game's fun, there was no shortage whatsoever of lacking dialogues and situations. Yeah, I've no problem with talking a ZAX into shutting down- but it should actually take more doing than convincing one's little sister you've got'em caught dead to rights with their hand in the cookie jar. It took more than a "Look what you did, you're obviously insane!" to shut HAL 9000 down.

More like dominate and enslave, if you go by his actions instead of what he says. For someone who is ambitious to rule, he has little clue of how to manage people. Janet Kaplinski, for example, might not have been a visionary scientist like Dr. Li or James, but she was a capable technician...in a era where literacy is probably under 50%, she was far more valuable alive than dead. Yet he plugs her just to terrify people into obeying him. And in the process losing any possibility of gaining the use of one of the great scientists of his day. Stupid. And the way he handles the LW is even worse, if you cooperate he murders you without even an attempt to win you over and put you to work dealing with his enemies....only if you refudiate him do you leave the room alive, due to Eden's intercession, as even a souless machine like Eden can see that you may be of use if approached in the right way. His troops even murder Vault Dwellers....the only genetically pure people outside the Enclave, without batting an eye. Autumn is nothing but a fascist thug without the wit to rule any way other than at the point of a bayonet. But then that might be a insult to fascists....most of the fascist Dictators of the past knew talent when they saw it and probably would have tried to make a deal like Eden did.






He's just another thug who wandered in out of the wastes and tried to make himself God-King only to end up forgotten in a unmarked grave because he had no idea how to inspire anyone to do anything except unite against him. The CW will do just fine without him, the first seeds of some kind of government in the CW are already starting to sprout...the Regulators are proof people have had enough, all it will take is someone charismatic enough to get people to start to pull together rather than think only of themselves.

I think this really sums up the whole Enclave.

They have no real interest at all in helping people live safer lives, and they are too lazy-thinking to even see that their advantage lay in helping. They would have been the rulers of the waste and the cornerstone of the post-war rebuilding of America if they supported your Dad's efforts and distributed clean water. If they used their tech and manpower to improve the daily lot of the folks who struggle to survive, everyone would love them. Instead they just kill people and interrupt the positive efforts of others in their bid for power.

Their "hard choice" for the future of the wasteland boils down to:

a: deliver water and protect innocent settlers from raiders, slavers, and other aggressors,
b: genocide. --don't deliver water, don't protect the populace, but instead poison/kill the non-pure and anyone who disagrees with your violent power grab.

Baseball, romps in the countryside with your lovable dog, rebuilding America so you don't have to.... the writers bluntly tell you (ham-fistedly, even) that those stories are lies, that Eden is a liar and a fake, that he was elected by "the appropriate people", i.e. not elected, etc. etc.

So what are they "rebuilding"? They are just douchebags of the first order. Raiders with better armor and helicopters, although still laughably feeble at fighting.

... So my good character proudly killed them all. :goodjob:

(Which then brings up the complaint that if you want to roleplay a soft-witted sociopathic murderer, you should be able to join the Soft-Witted Sociopathic Murderers Party and commit genocide to your creepy, poisoned, dim-thinking heart's content. Hey, my bad character cheerfully enslaves, kills, loots and cannibalizes anyone she meets, so why not join the Enclave, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, etc.? Maybe Bethesda thought they'd get in trouble if they offered this option... the participating in organized genocide thing was just that one step too far for a game, like killing kids, or peeing in toilets....)

Exactly its gonna have to get worse before it ever gets better.

I liked Autumn, and his awesome accent. Didn't stop me turning him into industrial slag and stealing his coat though.


Since he's a robot, wouldn't he already have a lot of those metals in him?