I wish Duke would re-upload his "Smash of the Titans" mod. Fortunately, I still have it, and include it in every game. With this mod, you will no longer think of monsters as "easy"... You'll be terrified of Ogres, Trolls, Atronachs, MMM Giants, Giant Mud Crabs, Frost Titans, Minotaurs, and most large-sized beasts. A strong hit from one of these beasts will take away about 3/4 of your health and send you flying 20 feet through the air! Makes the game way harder, but a fun challenge for a tough fighter character.

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=23541

the hypothermia mod was CLASS too

A balanced game has nothing to do with difficulty, actually.. there can be "easy" balanced games and "hard" balanced games.

A balanced game is one in which:

1. No skill is rendered totally obsolete by another skill (counterexample in Oblivion: Illusion can do everything Speechcraft can do and more.)
2. No skill is rendered totally obsolete by easy workarounds (Security)
3. No combat tactic renders other combat tactics totally obsolete (counterexample in Oblivion: you could just run backwards spamming arrows at everything and never get hit. Why melee at all?)
4. Resources are limited enough that a player has to make real choices about how to use them. (counterexample in Oblivion, there is far more gold income than you could ever spend. Things like bribes cost a pittance and make Speechcraft even more spit on)

Basically, a balanced game ensures that everything put into the game has a fair chance to actually do something useful and isn't totally eclipsed by something easier to do/use/buy. It looks like the developers of Oblivion didn't even try to do this.

I've updated the original post with some additional mods that should be considered for game balance reasons. Some of the New List overlap a little (Combat Archery/Marksman Challenge). I'd like everybody's thoughts on the updated list, and if something seems too unbalanced, in your opinion.

For the Damage Modifier versus Level-Based Health Debate, I've decided to go for Phitt's Damage Modifier. I'm planning to use it to level the playing field for any increases in damage (such as from Combat Archery or Deadly Reflex)



That's correct. Here I am focusing on the combat aspect. But I'll definitely be packing such mods as Persuasion Overhaul to keep a balance of skills.

From what I read about Phitt's Damage Multiplier, it will not even up imbalances you add yourself. It is a flat damage multiplier ("the difficulty slider as it should have been" kind of thing...)

Yep, it can't be used to balance out damage from various mods that deal with different types of damage. That's what the other mods should do. If you add Mighty Magic then magic will be overpowered compared to other types of damage. If you add my damage multiplier it won't change the relation, it will just make everything deal more damage.

But the weapon damage increase from Deadly Reflex is optional and the damage increase for bows in Combat Archery can be adjusted in the ini afaik.

Ah yes. I was just looking at this. Good. I'll keep away from the damage increases that other mods add, and just increase damage all around, should I wish to.

Another thing:

I've heard that Mighty Magic was overpowered, though I'm not sure about Midas Magic. Either way I think that adding either would be going overboard as far as magic is concerned. But, while I'm on topic with magic, SM first LAME second or vice-versa? I've had two posts on this forum go both ways. I suppose I could just go along with BOSS's ruling. Any preference?

Both MMs are overpowered. Midas Magic just adds a bunch of crazy spells. It is also pretty powerful. For balance, go with SM after LAME and stay away from Midas. BOSS sorts LAME after SM because...I do not know why. Maybe LAME is more popular or something. For the sake of balance, SM is the best of the Magic Overhauls.

Mighty Magic is definitely very overpowering, personally I wouldn't use it. Magic users are godlike, other people and creatures are cannon fodder. People also mentioned it has bugs and I think I remember that either the old or the new version causes savegame bloating.

Midas Magic may have some powerful spells, but it is certainly nowhere near Mighty Magic in that regard. I have it in my current game, but didn't get around using any of the spells yet. Tried earlier though by cheating. The spells are so cool you don't want to miss them, just have a look at Youtube.

Whether to load SM or LAME last is probably a matter of personal preference. Just read the readmes and decide yourself. Personally I only use LAME, so I can't even say what I would do. Well, probably I would load LAME last...hehe.

LAME extends average duration by ~x4, SM by ~x3. LAME effectively lowers the power to cost ratio, noticeably... I am definitely going for the "popularity" reason. I do not understand BOSS sorting LAME after SM, since SM's purpose is largely to overhaul the system, more so than adding new spells. I would think that most users of both would put SM last... I don't get it, but I guess most mod users do not care about balance.

I thought it was the other way around. I remember that the first version of LAME I tried didn't have any new spells at all except for a few summons added. It is mainly a magic overhaul of the existing system since it changes all spells and all magic effects. SM on the other hand had levitation and lots of other custom spells more or less right from the start. But I might be wrong, never actually played with SM.

Maybe it is also loaded after by BOSS because if you use RBP LAME gives a better overall balance since it is meant to be used with RBP (which changes some magic settings too despite its name). And then you have Integration, another popular mod which requires both.

Actually, they do both add a number of spells. I usually forget about that part of SM, but LAME does lengthen the spell time significantly more. I use RBP+SM+LAME and quite a few more leveling, skill and attribute overhaul mods. You can configure SM to use RBP's stats if you want, but I prefer SM's defaults (great for OOO and FCOM.)


Edit: SM works fine with RBP. I still do not know why BOSS loads SM and LAME in that arrangement, but I use BOMM to change the group order so that SM loads after LAME entirely. The other problem with that order being default is that many users of LAME+SM just let BOSS sort the two that way and have the LAME summon override installed, even though LAME is already loading afterward.

no no I won't stay behind while you say that one of the very best mods is overpowered mate

Mighty Magick definitely is. Midas Magic however is not. sure it adds some very powerful spells. BUT:

1) many many people have modded setups that spawn large numbers of baddies, MMM FCOM etc. you need some kind of crowd control there, and Midas provides some. it's even explicitly suggested in the MMM readme!
2) it makes you work HARD to gain access to the cool spells
3) you still need the skill and magicka pool to use them

so all in all it IS balanced imho. not like, say, the flying dragon you get for free from Akatosh Mount

btw, I just realized I missed mentioning one of the must have mods in my previous post. shame on me. kuertee's NPCs yield! this one is SO MUCH FUN. works awesome with companion share and recruit. when you spare someone's life, he/she will like you a lot. so you can now befriend him and have him tag along. kinda obsoletes the excellent CM partners in giving you partners that are not simply mercenaries. I enjoy this immensely

Huh, I was interested in that mod of Kuertee's earlier. Maybe I will check it out...


Edit: Are there any compatibility concerns with that mod?

Edit: I still say users add MM more for fun than anything else. Look at the images uploaded... There is no way that I missed MM being the most downloaded mod. I was wondering "What?! Why...?" the first time I saw that over a year ago.

Edit: Is it configureable? Can it be rebalanced? I mean, even when I find a sweet powerful sword in FCOM, I can't, afterward, walk over anything and everything in the game. I have yet to find a sword to damage that stinking Balrog...grrrr...which is why I have added Adonnay's Weaponry. Just wait till my PC meets that thing again...at a slightly higher level than last time...

well fun IS important, no? playing should be fun, not a chore

dammit oblivion modding definitely does become a chore. we're all masochists to a degree? or just perfectionists?

anyway, I have never noticed nor heard any issues with that mod. you could check kuertee's thread, but IIRC there was just discussion about new features for it, not bugfixing, so it should be fine. honesly I'm amazed you, of all people ( i.e. you are very knowledgeable when it comes to good mods ) don't know about it, I guess you haven't spent months looking for mods like I have, well done hope you like it, I'll be glad I talked you into that

I know about the mod, but I have not used it, haha. Well, I guess I do know a few things about some mods I do not use, but only because other users use them. I have not seen that thread of Kuertee's often. Is it a separate thread, just for that mod?

I definitely fall into the anol group around here, haha. However, I have only spent years looking for mod, not months (guess I've missed that stop now...) Fun is great an all, but I put balance first (and that pushed me away from MM very early.) I have added lots of convenient little (fun) mods too though, not a masochist... However, you may have noticed that I do not spend much time playing the game. Choices, choices...

I'm loving all the self-imposed rules that are popping up regarding what is and is not balanced.

internal consistency ... equitable distribution of numbers.

I maintain that it is all relative to the person playing the game (their skills) and how that relates to their choices of mods.

Truly any list of mods that one person could call 'balanced' another would look at it and go 'omg your crazy.'

So my own stab at relativism:
A mod like LAME may be overpowered in vanilla Oblivion, but not with modded combat that ups other things.

I don't use FCOM archery but other than duke it is the probably the next best thing. That only handles archery so then archers are deadly and magic users are a push over.

The original rationale (as I recall for LAME & SM) is to have LAME last to make the magic overhaul compatible with RBP. Both readme's state you can swap though. I also recall numerous posts a year ago advocating LAME last. That is what I play and no it does not feel un-balanced.

As for internal consistency - making sure that no game feature is left unused or unusable. This is a bethesda game there are choices within the game that makes other choices obsolete. Take lockpicking/security. totally can be ignored if a magic user. Or do a quick quest and get a key that makes the entire skill near meaningless.

Mods just extend that theme ... but it is inherent in the game as it is.

I agree with LAME not being un-balancing (and did not try to indicate otherwise), but I prefer that the spells cost more lasting that long. SM and LAME are on the same power level. Yeah and that "original rationale" pushes the LAME loading last because BOSS is popular. If you read the comparison and decide you would rather spells did not last is long, that is a personal choice. SM might be overpowered with vanilla Oblivion as well...probably is with default setting, but, unlike LAME, it can be configured differently...

With SM's ini you can be a god if you exploit it.

I use both and cannot fathom playing Oblivion without RBP-Integration OR SM, so LAME has to be there too.

SM has one feature I cannot live without and that is the ability to expand the area of effect on projectile spells. great for 3rd person fighting. It makes no sense that a flare spell or a frostball has to hit dead center to do damage (very hard to do in 3rd person).

So even if one loaded both I don't see them as un-balancing.

If ever I did not want Integration then SM would still be there. Actually Magic is the least interesting part of this game if you ask me. All mods do is add spells. Only a few have ever tackled seriously the AI of magic using NPCs or the guilds or the way spells are learned (midas maybe).

You could...but that goes against balancing, which is the purpose of this topic.

now I'm curious: when using companions and/or conjuration, would you recommend stickier enemy targeting?

I have mixed feelings on it, on one side it removes a possible exploit so it's great. otoh it seems like it's a quick hack that may go too deep the other way ( i.e. enemies will ALWAYS target you ONLY ) . so watcha guys think? the question also applies if not using companions or conjuration, but well those are the two that really make that mod worthwhile imho.

btw, excellent thread this one. awesome place to post gameplay mods, which imho are the most important. adding a quest/content/landmass mod later rather than sooner is no harm, but playing for a while and then realizing the experience could have been a lot better had you had some mods, that's annoying

That's like saying crash bugs are "inherent" to TES games after the Daggerfall release. Yes, they're all over Daggerfall. No, they're not necessary for Daggerfall to be a good game, in fact they're a hindrance. Yes, they should be taken out in the next iteration or with mods.

Security is more powerful than Alteration for opening locks. I need 50 level in Alteration to even open Average locks. Security is just TOO strong, because you can use it to open any level chest easily no matter what the level in security. All that needs to be changed to make security balanced (and therefore useful to have as a major and raise) is to make the speed of the pins increase sharply if you're trying to pick a lock above your level, or something like that. This would be a good chance - it means that a thief, with Security, would acctually be better at opening locks than someone who isn't. It would be a meaningful choice to take Security instead of a waste. As for that particular quest.. yeah, I think it should increase your Security skill by 25 or so

It IS possible to have reasonable balance in single player games.

Reasonable balance DOES improve the play experience because there are more meaningful choices to make and therefore more ways to play the game.

It's amazing to me that people deny either of the two above points.

Perhaps a better way to go about this would be to go skill by skill and try and find balance that way? I figured since the topic has progressed as far as it has done, I might as well and broaden the spectrum of discussion from combat balance to overall balance.

All of these largely put more reliance on particular skills, or enhance usage of a particular skill, and/or helps nerf a particular skill; with the overall goal to balance the game.

Strength
Blade
Blunt (Lock Bash Omega)
Hand-to-Hand (Kayo, Raging Fists)
Endurance
Armorer (Armorer's Advantage, Grumblepunk's Lockpicks, Breakable Arrows)
Block (Better Blocking)
Heavy Armor (Stealth Overhaul)
Speed
Athletics
Acrobatics
Light Armor (Stealth Overhaul)
Agility
Security (Zumb's Lockpicking, Grumplepunk's Lockpicks)
Sneak (Stealth Overhaul, Proximity-Based Sneak)
Marksman (Breakable Arrows, DP's Combat Archery/Marksman Challenge, DP's Actors can Miss, DP's Double Nock)
Personality
Mercantile (Enhanced Economy)
Speechcraft (Persuasion Overhaul, Combat Speechcraft)
Illusion
Intelligence (Intelligence Overhaul)
Alchemy
Conjuration
Mysticism
Willpower (Willful Resistance, nGCD)
Alteration
Destruction
Restoration
Luck

Other:
Crossbows of Cyrodiil (takes monopoly off Marksman skill over non-magical ranged attacks)
Unarmored Skill for Everyone (takes monopoly over armor away from Heavy and Light armor skills)
Weight Based Dynamic Weapons Speeds (shifts one-handed weapons to Agility, 2H remain on strength)

Tinkers with level progression and skills:
Progress
Realistic Leveling
Dynamic Skills
Attribute-Based and Skill-based Damage Modifiers
nGCD


NOTE: I haven't touched on fatigue mods much, but they tend to increase the importance of the strength, Agility, and Endurance attributes.

Some skills are already balanced enough even with mods added. I do not think that adding separate mods to handle each skill necessarily helps with balance. You should really play the game with a certain set of mods, and then add and adjust as you need to, by feel. I would guess that it would be harder to balance everything with a mod for each skill or pair of skills. I definitely do not recommend using Intelligence Overhaul with Willful Resistance.