I have some questions and observations about Combat Styles. In the Geck, I see three ways that you can set a combat style for an NPC - on the 'traits' tab of the NPC itself, through the script function SetCombatStyle, and in the AI package. Every AI package that I look at has DEFAULT as the CS. There is no CS in the Geck with the Editor ID of 'DEFAULT'. Does 'DEFAULT' do nothing, or does it revert the NPC to game engine defaults when an evp is run? If this is the case, does the package over-ride and 'undo' the script command? I've been testing this on a follower i'm working on, using different packages such as FollowShortRanged and FollowShortMelee, with the CS field set to styles that only allow range/melee respectively, and it seems to be working out. I was just wondering if anyone else had any experience with this and if i'm just imagining success where there is none. I can't seem to find a function that will tell me the current CS of an NPC.

Thanks

This sounds... confusing

I've never seen the combat style thing used on AI package. Does it really work? heh.

I am not sure which combat style rules are applied with "DEFAULT" set in the object definition. Perhaps it is some set which lives somewhere in the guts of the game and we're not necessarily going to find it.

Changing combat style by script is sort-of broken anyway - and yes the Bethesda followers code tries to use it in a way that doesn't pan out. What happens is, if you use a script to change an NPCs combat style, and then save your game, and then close the game down and restart it, the combat style will have reverted on the NPC back to whatever's on the object definition.

I have to manage combat styles on the followers in my mod, and I have to do it externally, by script. Whenever the player enters combat, a quest script is tracking things, and it sets the follower to be in the combat style that the player asked for. Its like this..

if playerref.isincombat	if playercombat	else		set playercombat to 1		if PhalanxMalcolm2REF.CombatStyleRanged			PhalanxMalcolm2REF.SetCombatStyle FollowersCombatStyleRanged		elseif PhalanxMalcolm2REF.CombatStyleMelee			PhalanxMalcolm2REF.SetCombatStyle FollowersCombatStyleMelee		endif	endifelse	if playercombat		set playercombat to 0	endifendif

Its a little weird looking but it does exactly what I want, when I want.

I have no idea how well the on-package combat style works, but I wonder how consistant it is. Wonder if its better than the basically broken script command. hmm.

It seems to be. This current follower i'm working with has never picked up a melee weapon, and I've never given it one. I play pretty much exclusively ranged. In previous mods where I didn't have the CS set in the package, the NPC would love to pick the super sledge after a SM fight sometimes.



Last night I setup something that would be a little more objective as a test, because I had never actually given my NPC a melee weapon. I made an NPC with two packages - follow and wait, with the CS set to FollowersRanged. A quest to handle 'wait', 'lets go', and 'trade'. A quest script to handle the wait and follow variables. No NPC script. I gave it a Katana sword -28 damage, and a Laser pistol with ammo - 7 damage. If no other weapons, it would equip the Katana, which is reasonable. After adding the Laser pistol, it's would equip the pistol, which is consistent with the ranged package. I took this NPC with me through vault 87. It would consistently use the laser pistol, even at point-blank range. It would loot more powerful ranged weapons from SM - although at this level, none of the SM had melee weapons, so this part is not conclusive. One thing that was strange was that right after a fight, if the NPC went into combat search behavior, it would draw the sword and search. Upon finding the enemy, it would sheath the sword, and equip the Laser pistol and enter combat.

To really test that you'd want to switch back and forth between the melee and ranged AI packages and see the effects. Remember that the "default" CS will typically put them onto ranged, so you'll want to use the melee package to primarily see what you've got. Also, you'd want to shut down the game and restart it and load a save where you're sure the follower is sitting in the melee-specific AI package, and then have it engage in combat right away, and see if it uses that melee weapon without having to do anything to the follower to trigger it.

The drawing of melee weapons during combat search behavior is embedded in the guts of the game. I'm unable to prevent it by any means (and I can prevent a LOT) so, just ignore that.

So I've been playing with this exact thing recently as I'm doing a complete revision of Charon. So, ya, the combat style set in the packages does seem to make a switch to the combat style during some times at least in gameplay, but ya, I can't find a function to look at it either.

This is why I think it works. I've made a new "DEFAULT" combat style for Charon and changed it to the new one on his NPC tab. It is simply the DEFAULT combat style with a few things changed. I've made it so he doesn't have a weapons preference and allowed him to use StealthBoys, etc. So, when I was first adding packages (he has a few for wandering around and doing things in Megaton and RC) I noticed that when I switched him between the packages in dialogue he would change which weapon was equipped (melee to ranged or the other way). I thought this was the combat style changing between the packages, as I hadn't switched them (the ones on the new packages) to his new combat style. And this was indeed true. Once I changed the packages to be running his new default style he didn't switch his equipped weapon with packages.

However, I haven't done rigorous testing of whether or not he is staying in his Ranged Combat Style or Melee Combat Style when I am playing. I have been getting ready to do that. The big problem with melee, and it has never really worked in the game very well, is that if the companion has a ranged weapon, he/she will use it. I tried giving him a different Class (Talon Melee whatever) to support him using melee weapons exclusively, since he doesn't have it tagged, but that did not produce a "melee only" style. He still would use his ranged weapon. Sure he did it at appropriate times, but I have another combat style for both weapons, and the point of melee only would be that the follower would use melee only. Always. I guess. At least that is the implication. I can get the same effect (his favoring a melee weapon close in and ranged farther out with the other package, and a superior melee weapon will win out against an inferior ranged weapon in the package that lets him choose either style). So he fights like Clover and Jericho now, with the new combat style, and they are both tagged in melee, and he isn't. I suppose the next test for Melee only would be a Class that doesn't have a gun in it. I think there's one that is Explosives and Melee and something else, but I could be misremembering. And then he'd throw grenades from a distance I suspect. I don't think there's a way to force all melee with the combat style and Class combo. They need more direction to do it I think.

And, with the new combat style, he fights very differently than he does on Ranged only. He will use his combat knife. Ha, he was just fighting a Behemoth with it because his only Ranged Weapon is a lousy Laser Rifle, because we are very early in the game (I've given him the option to be a different class which supports him using EW reliably if they have sufficient DPS to overcome his love of SG, and I can take his better weapons, including follower weapons away so he'll use it). So I can see a difference in game when I change him to Ranged as he doesn't use the melee weapons unless it's an extremely good one (like the Shish) but he doesn't equip it; he just uses it and then re-equips the ranged weapon. In the new style he will walk around with the Shish equipped if it's better than his ranged weapon.

I'm going to be testing this more. I need to see if he holds the combat style (Ranged) through saves. Class seems to play a big part in it, and am using that to control his behavior as well.



This isn't strange behavior for the vanilla followers. They often do this. Even Charon on his Ranged Only package in which he will (bascially) never use his combat knife. But you'll see Jericho and Clover do it too. They always use melee weapons on Ranged Combat style. And Jericho will switch between BG, SG and melee under Ranged, which he does because he's tagged in all three (I assume). The combat style doesn't overcome that just like the Melee style doesn't really surpress the use of Ranged weapons. Whereas Charon will mostly ignore his knife except when he's searching for enemies and then use his ranged weapon to kill them, even from four feet away.

I've had some experience using the package-based combat styles, during my long drawn out battles with AI. From what I've seen and ran into, the package based CS's override the NPC geck styles everytime the package is run. They also seem to "tie" a scripts power to override each other, so whatever one is the last one called will be in effect. An example might be a package with CS is running, a script called will override the CS, but not invalidate the package behavior itself. Likewise, if a script has changed the CS, and when a package with a new CS is run the CS does indeed change. Of course, that's all based on my own trial and lots of error.. but in the end I didn't wind up using package based CS's because they're just as flaky and get dropped just as easily as the AI packages themselves do. Seemed far more reliable to use package result scripts to alter a variable, then call the CS change straight from a main script.

Umm.

All the followers frequently switch to their melee weapons while doing combat search behavior. It doesn't matter what you change or what you do, they will always do this. It's deep in the guts of the AI.

yooooooooooo!!!

Has anyone tried:

Taking a follower whose combat style on the object definition is either some ranged-only or "DEFAULT",

Put that follower on an AI package that has a melee-only combat style associated with it, and then saved the game, and then shut the game down.

And then, re-started Fallout 3, and then loaded the save, and without doing anything to the follower, checked to see if he was willing to use ranged? Or, had the follower switched back to the object definition's combat style upon game reload?

You're describing an approach that cannot work for controlling an NPCs weapon choice. Firstly - - understand that the only thing that forces a follower to use only melee weapons IS a combat style that restricts him to it. The skills (IE: the Class) do not force anything, all they do is boost the DPS with that particular weapon, and that causes the follower to be more likely to pick a certain weapn. But - important caviat - script-command combat style does not work for a long time on them. They revert back to the default combat styles, and ALWAYS after a save-and-reload of the game's .exe, the script-set combat style will drop away. The way Bethesda used a variable and did a one-time set on the follower does not work the way you think it would because the combat style reverts to "DEFAULT" later.

In Phalanx, I have had to precisely control the followers' combat style by using scripts which set it repeatedly. Every time the player enters combat, the followers get their combat styles reapplied. That ensures that it gets set properly. But I'm certainly interested to see if you guys happen to notice what it acts like when you have a follower forced onto an AI package with a melee-only combat style applied, and if the follower continues to respect the combat style after a game save, close, restart, and load.

Applying a new combat style interrupts the combat and causes the NPC to re-equip his weapon, so you cannot call it frequently. Well, you CAN, but it would be dumb.

So, I had a very different experience with Class. Charon would not, no matter what I did, equip an Energy Weapon as a Soldier Scout. Period. As I took his weapons away, he would equip the next one down on his list. So he had his combat shotty, grenades, and his combat knife. I put a super juiced up Laser Rifle in his inventory. I took the shotty away, he equipped the grenade. When I took away the grenades he equipped the combat knife. Ugh. He had this perfectly wonderful Laser Rifle (higher DPS than his shotty) and he wouldn't equip it. This is the same behavior I've mostly observed on the 360. That he would not, with any reliability,in my experience, equip a weapon that is from a non-tagged skill regardless of DPS, so it occured to that maybe something else was causing that behavior. So, I finally, being really irritated and desperate, changed his Class to one which is EW, SG and Sneak just to see what effect it would have (I had already tried raising his EW skill). I then did the same inventory thing to him and he immediately equipped the Laser Rifle and reliably will use one.



Why do you need to do this? I'm just curious. What do they not do if you don't do this that you want them to do? (ugh. terrible sentence. sorry. i'm tired but interested in picking your brain.) If it's too much to get into; no problem.

:)

If you are using the console to adjust a follower's energy weapons skill, the correct way to do this is:

<select follower>getav EnergyWeapons<lets say, the follower is at 19 skill>modav energyweapons 81getav energyweapons<it will report that the energy weapons skill is now 100>

The point of that being, you are using modav to change the value and being sure that you are putting it where you mean to. If you want to put him back, afterward, you do

modav energyweapons -81

It sounds like you're looking at the Laser Rifle's damage rating while you, personally, have Energy Weapons skill. That is NOT the DPS that your follower sees, and especially if that follower does not have Energy Weapons skill himself. The Laser Rifle is actually a relatively low-DPS energy weapon and a follower who has no Energy Weapons skill will never choose it, for that reason. All the Class setting did was adjust his Energy Weapons skill down to zilch which made the Laser Rifle very unattractive to him. I feel sure that there's nothing else about Class which affects follower weapon selection.

If you want to watch this in action, a follower without Energy Weapons skill (such as if you set the Soldier Scout class) may choose a well-repaired Plasma Rifle, and I've also seen Vengeance get preference in these cases. But Laser Rifle, heck no. I have to force followers to use Laser Rifles, even when they have Energy Weapons skill.



The reason for most followers is that if I don't, the whole player-setting of "I want you to use ranged weapons" and "I want you to use melee weapons" doesn't work well enough. You will set it, and then be doing whatever, and then have a game crash, and then load your last save, and then the follower is back to using whatever weapon type he feels like.

On my version of Butch, if you tell him to develop his talents in Melee weapons, it's more involved because I'm managing him in between melee and ranged right in the middle of fights. If he is close to an enemy I will switch him to melee only, then if he is farther away, I'll put him back on ranged.

Ok, I added two more packages - melee follow, melee wait, and quest variables and dialog to control and switch the packages between ranged and melee. I took the NPC through Tepid Sewers about a dozen times and took some notes. The settings are preserved across game saves. My theory on the game save is that when an NPC is loaded on starting the game, the AI package is applied last, so the CS in it will override the CS in both the NPC object and a script command that was done previously. An AI package CS definitely has a effect but it won't replace scripting and weapons control through scripts, IMHO.

Here's my notes from last night:

Melee Package enabled - starting with a knife and assault rife/ammo in inventory

Mirelurks outside of Tepid sewers - fired ranged weapon until getting within melee distance, then used melee weapon only
Enclave eyebot near Dukov's place - fired ranged weapon at it
Enclave soldiers near Dukov's place - used melee weapon until rendered unconscious

Inside Tepid sewers:
Molerats - used melee weapon only
Turret - always used ranged weapon at it.
raiders - used melee weapon only, when close to them - after turret was taken out with ranged weapon - the NPC did not appear to shoot at the raiders with it.
NPC seemed to use the more powerful ranged weapon during combat search behavior or from a distance if too many/too powerful enemies, then get closer and draw melee weapon. Saw it use the ranged
weapon on a raider that was fleeing (but there were a group of three raiders in this case) the NPC took them all out with the ranged weapon.
With lone raiders, or just two, like Rocksalt, would always rush all the way to them with melee weapon
Quicksave/fullsave/exitgame/restartgame several times - maintained melee behavior

Melee Package enabled - starting with knife only in inventory

Inside Tepid sewers:
Would loot raiders for a ranged weapon to use on the turret. When there wasn't any to be found, whould perform combat search behavior with melee weapon until attacked by the turret. Npc would
then fall back and take cover where I was at, seem to lose the target, and repeat the search behavior. (combat alert is turned off in the package) I placed a 10mm pistol and some ammo in a dead
raider and the NPC promptly looted it and attacked the turret with it. It then returned to the same melee behavior on the molerats and raiders as above.
If I took out the turret, the NPC would not loot a ranged weapon no matter how many enemies it faced further on and would attack them with the knife until rendered unconscious.
Quicksave/fullsave/exitgame/restartgame several times - maintained melee behavior

Melee Package enabled - starting with Assault rifle/ammo only in inventory

Inside Tepid sewers:
Would use the assault rifle on the first molerats and would promptly loot a knife from a container in the storeroom to the left (NPC would open the door to get to it.) or the first room to the
right. Would then perform the same behavior as the first scenario.

Ranged Package enabled - Same behavior as the my previous test in vault 87a. This time I verified that the ranged behavior is preserved across game saves.

It didn't occur to me to check the tag skills on my test NPC, but coincidentally I had the class set to 'Wasteland Adventurer' which is tagged with Small Guns, Melee, and Sneak.

Based on what you saw in testing, I don't believe it's working the way that is wanted. It's not 'melee behavior' if your follower even touches a ranged weapon. If he puts a ranged weapon in his hand, he's not using your melee-only combat style. The effect really is that powerful when it is applied. It sounds like the follower is switching back to that "default" thing. I could make a video real quick that shows what its like when a follower is forced between the two.

In the experiment with Class that I described above, I had modav'd his Energy Weapons skill higher than all his other skills. I did it in a script. The Laser Rifle I gave him was modified to have a higher DPS than his shotty. I wanted him to use that Laser Rifle at that point, and so I made it better, stronger, faster... you get it. Its stats were better than a Plasma Rifle and it was in 100% condition and yes, I'd given him ammo for it. I checked his EW in the console to make sure the script had actually worked, and it had. He didn't equip the LR until I changed his Class. I don't know why it is working the way it is, but it is. The reason I tried it is because I come from playing with the companions for hundreds of hours on the 360, so I've seen them pick up weapons and not. I've never had much luck getting any of them to use weapons out of their tagged skills and Charon was always the least flexible for me.



Interesting. Thanks. I'll keep this in mind when I'm testing the Ranged combat style to see if it survives across saves and other trauma.

That's odd. I test all the time by setting skills in the console using modav without touching the class assignment.

On the other thing - I have a video going up shortly showing how powerful the melee-only and ranged-only combat styles are, when they are actually applied. If anyone's follower behavior is not as obedient to the desired combat style as the video shows, the follower is not on that combat style, it's that simple. I'll post when the video's been uploaded.

I, too, have modified an NPC's weapon skill - on the stats tab by modifying the offset - and got them to use weapons outside of their "tagged" class weapons.

No, the behavior is not what you would desire. What I meant by 'maintained melee behavior' is that the NPC's behavior was consistent - not necessarily desired, for the package that was enabled for the test.

Ya, I expected it to work that way, from what I'd read here in the Forum and had seen in other mods and was getting pretty frustrated when I wasn't getting any love from him with the EW.



I agree with this. Followers will use melee weapons under their DEFAULT package along with Ranged weapons. However, I've never seen the Melee Only CS, applied as it is in the GECK, actually make a companion use only Melee weapons. Does it ever work as designed?


I'll be interested in seeing your video.

K, video is up, watch in 1080p in fullscreen mode to be able to read the text properly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFLGELRBugY

yes, definitely it works as designed - - - - except that the combat style doesn't stick once you put it on, stuff makes it drop off. I'm not even sure about EVERYTHING that makes it drop off. I saw that game reset killed it and that was all I had to see, at that point I designed my crap to positively cover it no matter what.

That's pretty cool. Thanks

Thanks for the show. That was great.




Okay, thanks for the clarification. That explains a lot about their behavior and it's good to see it can be corrected.