Combat system is an important feature in TES games and RPGs in general. I want to discuss the combat system in each TES game and also how it should look in next TES game.

Beginning with Arena and Daggerfall, the combat system was simple. It was heading towards action combat system where player had control in movement and manual attacks, still with taking characters stats as the most important part. System is pretty simple - you swing your weapon with holding mouse button and moving the mouse, you can chose the direction of attack that was a nice feature.
In Morrowind combat has evolved, mostly because of fully 3D environment that gave you more control and visual indication, what is going on screen. Attacking is more annoying, because instead of calm mouse movement, you have to click every time you attack. And this infamous missing, it made combat system more unpleasant, mouse clicking can get into an attack spam. Stamina decrease when running is a pretty bad feature, it limited your movement in a combat and you had to wait or drink a stamina potion before the battle. Magic casting is pretty annoying, a lot of casting fail, it consumes your mana and time, it starts to be useful at higher skill levels. For beginning and middle characters it is underpowered.
It introduced new nice features - staggering, knockdown and blocking (that worked pretty much like dodging).
Heading to Oblivion, combat system improves more further. There's now manual blocking, no constant missing, strong attacks and improved animations. However, combat is pretty bad - it is a huge spam, just mash mouse button until your enemy dies. Tactics and skill don't matter much, you just attack and block when enemy attacks. Enemies have unbelievable amount of health and you can heal by using unlimited healing spell.
Magic is improved, I didn't like, that there are now hard limits, where you can cast certain spells at certain skill level, but annoyment is smaller in this one, because there's no failed casting anymore.
Skyrim's combat is some improvement over Oblivion. Enemies don't have that much health, but still it's a huge spam. Taking away stamina drain for normal attacks just encourages the spam. Circle strafe and attack enemy without tactics, that's repeating Oblivion mistakes.
Spells are weakened, because they work as an equipable items, that's bad for mage-melee build. I've liked, that you can now continuously cast damaging spells combine two to stronger attack and have to charge one-time casting spells.

The Elder Scrolls Online was a huge downgrade of combat system in TES games. It just took a standard MMO combat system, added some TES features like weapon attacking (with light and heavy attacks) and shield blocking, but it largely depends on using skills (typical MMO skills). It is a huge spam, you circle strafe enemy and use one skill until magicka (or stamina, that is now magicka 2.0) drains. Skills have no cooldown and casting time. Tactics don't exist.
You are informed clearly what enemy will do by telegraphs, that are geometrical figure on ground, or bright partciles over their heads. Pretty dumb, you are now hand-holded in combat.

How combat system should be in TES VI? Bethesda just must overhaul combat system, because it wasn't fun in previous games until you modded them. It should not be just a copy of previous system with few improvements - it must be completely redone.
Take a look at Dark Souls game - it has the best combat system I've ever seen in action RPG. Feels really natural and relies heavily on tactics. Let's highlight elements, that make combat unique and should go to TES VI:
- Animations and movesets - animations are directly from motion capture and feel really natural. Also each weapon type has its own moveset that makes these types unique. In TES games different weapons didn't feel unique and it looked like swinging with a wooden stick.
- Detecting hits - TES games use outdated method for detecting hit - shooting short rays based on character's and camera position, it's a system taken from FPS games. DS uses weapon's hitbox for detecting hits making it really accurate and making different movesets actually useful.
- Poise system - in TES games weapon just do damage. They don't stagger enemy, or do it in limited way. Poise opens new tactical possibilities - what armour I need? What weapon should I use? Which enemy should I attack first, or start attacking others?
- Active dodging - instead running like a freak, circle strafing and being fished for attacks. In Skyrim - running around, run away, come back, left, right, left - just to dodge attacks. It doesn't look good. Active dodging brings some skill to playing and makes combat look more realistic, also adds a playstyle for players who play with light armour and no shield. If RPG has action based combat, active dodging is very important.

I don't mention magic system, because it's poorly done in DS games (but it is going to improved in third game). TES games needs a new magic system. Magic was underpowered in TES games and didn't go well with skill level.
Magic should bring some exciting experience, be as interesting (or more?) as melee. Bring some new interesting spells, destruction should not be limited to shooting fireballs. New tactical spells, like AOE attacks, fire walls, tornadoes... imagination allows here for many interesting options.

And finally, the last concern to discuss. Combat depended on skill or player stats?
TES games are heading towards action combat, even in early games (Arena&Daggerfall) it gave more control to player. Action combat system doesn't mean character stats don't matter. They DO matter. Attack strength, health, magicka, skills, etc. - they still exist. Combat is almost impossible when fighting high leveled enemies as low level character. In Oblivion and Skyrim it wasn't noticeable, because they had this hated level scaling system.

Let's fight... I mean discuss.

No TES doesnt need to turn into a Dark Souls combat clone. Personally if I had a game to choose to copy it would be Dragons Dogma but even then I like game series to keep their own distinctions.

We need to see how the melee will work in Fallout 4 to get a glimpse of how it might work come ES 6.

I am not too fond of dark souls either. I liked Morrowinds combat since it was focused more on character skill than player skill and stamina played a key role. But Skyrim's combat is more engaging.

One big pet peeve of mine is Stamina. Stamina was watered down a bit in Oblivion, and by Skyrim, stamina was only needed for power attacks, sprinting and bow zooming. Vanilla Skyrim feels to me like it relies too much on player skill and a skilled player can take a low level character and defeat high level enemies if they time blocks and dodging correctly. Part of this is the lack of importance of stamina in Skyrim.

My ideal combat system would be something along the lines of Requiem, but that is going to be too extreme for the mass market Bethesda is aiming at, so we won't ever see anything like that from Bethesda.

Stamina is super critical in Requiem, affecting not only weapon damage, but also your movement speed, spell casting costs and chance to be disarmed. So, your ability to be successful in combat depends on your stamina pool, which can take a few levels to build. Requiem also achieves a nice blend of player skill and character skill. A skilled player can take on some enemies with a low level character that a non skilled player would struggle with, but a skilled player with a low level character is going to have no chance against frost trolls, much less vampires, dragons, dragon priests or any of the more difficult enemies. Which is how it should be in my opinion.

I would like to see a combat system similar to what is being done with Kingdom Come Deliverance.

I'd personally like more of a comfortable balance between player skill and character skill to be met, in regards to the combat characteristics of the next TES game.

Furthermore, I'd like some of the elements you brought up to be included, but not in a fashion like Dark Souls.

Like like things like:

-Athletics as a skill that influences dodging, overall movement fluidity, speed, acrobatic abilities, etc.

-Parrying

-Strength mechanics that influence knock-back, staggering, ability to sweep limbs, and also effectiveness of parrying/sword clashing

-Dodging, perhaps by double tapping the jump button while in combat.

-Proximity damage by weapon skill and the ability to cripple limbs (perhaps making a crippled arm unable to be used combatively)

-Fatigue and weapon skill playing into how effective blows are, sometimes causing blows to glance off or stagger someone

-Armor and armor skill drastically effecting movement

And needless to say, I'd like more enemy type variety (I mentioned this in a topic awhile back) and more attack styles and animation styles for different creatures. Strengths and weaknesses as well, like:

-Enemies with an armored front that charge in one direction and deal massive damage

-Enemies that chase after you and explode for massive damage

-Swarm enemies (although someone brought up this is potentially troublesome to handle)

-Enemies that an paralyze if the reticule points towards there eyes (think a medusa)

-Enemies that can wrap around you, like a giant snake

-Locational weakspots on certain enemies that are much harder to kill otherwise (this could still be consolidated with character skill since accuracy could be determined by a factor like marksmanship, destruction, or something of the sort, along with perhaps attributes as well)

-Enemies that are jump and leap around the room, chipping away at the player

-More enemies that use water to their advantage

-Enemies that use the environment to their advantage as well

-Enemies that replicate, or have bizarre methods of health regeneration

That would be nice. But dodging means that you would eventually miss your target so considering that the newer games are marketed towords a more general audience thats never gonna happen.

How so? I don't think adversity is necessarily unappealing to the masses. At least, not when it comes to something like dodging, which might make fights more engaging than anything.

I can agree with adversity outside of combat generally leading to an unappealing effect (AKA thirst, hunger, etc.).

I would hate to see TES become a combat simulator. That is not what these games have been about.

The newer games are made to be more cinematic and action based, not realistic and immersive.

I can agree with that last sentence. The RPG elements should always be given priority over anything else, IMO. However, I don't think expanded combat elements that could allow for more multi-dimensionality in terms of enemy encounters would be a bad thing, or would inherently detract from RPG aspects (although I could see how one could argue that the time spent developing those aspects could lead to that).

What I'm saying is that I have no problem with improved animations (cinematics), but I have a big problem with increased control complexity to allow greater player participation in the actual mechanics of combat.

The games have actually stepped away from player-control, and I consider this a good thing. Morrowind had the most complex player combat interaction, but virtually nobody used it (everybody turned on "Use best attack" in the preferences.) In Morrowind, the movement direction coordinated with the mouse-click to determine whether you made a thrust, slash, or chop. This was simplified in Oblivion so that only power attacks were tied to movement.

The games already allow full forward, backward, and side to side motion, along with smooth change of direction. Each hand is controlled by one of the two mouse buttons (or the console controller equivalent.) There's not much more that can be added as player control before something is going to become cumbersome.

Honestly, decent side-stepping would help a ton, to be used by both us and the enemy. Beyond that...eh. I'm more for the Characters skill being more important then the players for the most part. Higher Strength characters being able to break somebodies guard, ect ect.

I use Morrowind's combat interaction. Never use "best attack" option cause that takes away a lot of the depth of the combat system and weapon choice, since some weapons have high chop but really low thrust attacks and vice versa. A spear feels a lot more like a war hammer if you turn on "best attack". But without "best attack" turned on, you get some feel for the difference in weapons.

Oblivion did have a dodging mechanic once your acrobatics reached 50. I would not mind something along these lines, but would not want a complex button press scheme mechanic

Which is pretty much how I'd do it, just...better, frankly.

Souls games have amazing, complicated combat.... But it's not really suited for TES.

Bethesda really needs to come up with something new though, because Skyrim's combat feels old, awkward and boring.

ESO actually has a nice dodge mechanic, and the main TES games should adopt it (although it's awkward in 1st person.)

But TES is not just about combat, so even if they struggle with the same old formula again and again, I'll keep playing.

Though they really seem to be pushing the combat angle just a tad (at least Skyrim sorta did), I'mma echo the "character skill is best for TES" opinion. Add dodging as an alternative to blocking (ESO's was much better than Oblivion's tbh) and we're set.

Dark Souls has some of the least engrossing combat of any game i've played. It's slow, its repetitive (yes, you CAN vary your tactics, but there's absolutely no need to beyond maschism). Exanima looks like it tops it in virtually every way. Even Witcher, with its atrocious Keyboard controls, had more interesting combat. But the problem is, none of these games, nor From Honor, are remotely applicable to TES.

The main complication when looking at combat systems for TES is... it has 2 view modes. All the above games are 3rd person, and are designed around a 3rd person gameplay system. TES Can't do that, because more than half its players (based on polls seen here, on the Nexus, and on Game FAQs) play in 1rst person. You can't get rid of one or the other without causing some serious alienation issues with a significant amount of the population.

Which means you need a control system which works at least in part with both interfaces. Games like Dead Island, Vermin Tide, Chivalry and Dying Light are far better sources of inspiration, because of the simple fact that first person mechanics translate easier to 3rd person than the other way around. Some of the general concepts overlap a bit, but the method of implementation is far better when dealing with the dual interface mode...

As for Character Skill vs Player Skill... both are important. You can't rely too heavily on one or the other. The problem lies in managing the influences. You can't have Character Skill govern to-hit without complicating the enemy AI, you can't have a players Aim be the only factor in shooting a Bow, and even within Character Skill you have to manage the input of various components (Attributes, Skills and Weapon stats for instance) to ensure that none are irrelevant, but each has a worthwile impact.

All in all, i'm generally of the mind that Skyrim was on the right track with some of it's Perk systems, but didn't explore it to its fullest extent. It was better mechanically than previous iterations, even though it tended a bit further towards Character Skill than i like... I'd personally prefer more active defences and the ability to actually aim at things in something approaching a slightly functional manner...

TES Games have always been predominantly about combat. From Arena straight through to Skyrim, Combat has been the primary element of the gameplay, with everything else serving to supplement it.

TES very much SHOULD be a Combat Simulator. It should strive to be as functional a simulator of as many things as possible, but Combat first, as it's the gameplay element that the most people spend the most time engaging in, and which virtually everyone (i've heard of fabled non-combat experiences, but i've never seen one) engages in at some point.

I do feel like it needs a much better combat system, considering the series, while being an RPG, is pretty much mostly based around combat.

Things that are already there but aren't useful/significant, and improving on them would make the game so much better. Here are some:

-there is virtually no significant difference between heavy and light armor. While walking around naked should be a suicide, light armor should provide basic to moderate protection, while still offering great mobility. Heavy armor should really heavily penalize advanced movement, like dodging, but offer really high protection. And I think they should bring back medium, which would still offer some slightly more advanced movement, while offering decent protection.

-shields should block much more damage, and unblocked, direct attacks should deal much much more. Furthermore, we could use shield bashing to prevent power attacks, which wasn't as critical unless one used difficulty mods where attacks could really often one or two hit kill you.

-water combat, can be very basic, but not completely cut out. So much environment has been ruled out because there's nothing interesting to do underwater.

-different weapons should indeed work very differently. Currently there is absolutely no difference between choosing between an axe or between a sword, aside from aesthetic difference. Blunt should break through armor, swords should cut,daggers tab, etc. Feature I'd like to see brought over from Dark Souls is weapons deflecting from surfaces, as in, when you hit a wall it deflects your hit, rather than the swing going completely through, but I'd like to see some weight added to successful hits too, instead of hacking through non-blocking enemies like through thin air.

-I think spell failing should also be brought back, and automatic killcams removed. With difficulty mods killcams were rage-inducing, where an easily dodged or blocked attack was unavoidable because the game calculated I have to die from a guy standing 10 feet away from me, before even starting an attack.

-Spells are now way more visually pleasant, but still not horribly balanced and varied. Hopefully they add that spell combination from the mod jam they showed, and give us tons of possibilities for experimentation. Enchantment effects also seriously need variety, what we got in Skyrim was horribly uncreative.

One way to make the game pleasant to all audiences is to simply have all these numbers scaling greatly with difficulty, so Easy would play more like Skyrim currently does, while hardest could be closer to something like Dark Souls, and I'm talking about difficulty, not mechanics.

EDIT: forgot to mention, I also think scaling should not increase enemy health, but it would be really nice if it would increase AI...

This entire thread strikes me as something in the Beyond Skyrim thread, but eh.

Well, this wouldn't be a problem if there weren't abilities that take all of the consequences away from wearing heavy armor, making it the superior choice in almost any possible run. But beyond that, I'd like to see more mix and matching, mostly because I'd rather see a layered armor system as opposed to...whatever Skyrim was going for. Beyond that, I'd rather see Unarmored return before anything else.

Nonsense. TES has never succeeded in being a simulator of anything, and it shouldn't try to be. It's a cinematic open-world action/roleplaying experience, and the "combat" that occurs in it is as far from being a simulation of real combat as it could possibly be, just as the dialog barely resembles real-world dialog, the "stories" are contrived and unrealistic, etc...

Yes, it's full of "combat." You can be a pincushion full of arrows and keep on swinging an oversized and overweight warhammer endlessly and tirelessly, pounding it on the head of a guy in a fur hat who seems not to notice, until his "red bar" runs out and he goes down on one knee. TES "combat" is cartoon combat.

And that's what it's supposed to be. We're playing Hero. This is about myth and magic, and imagination, not simulation.

You act like the two are mutually exclusive. They're not. You can have fantasy and simulation at the same time. All simulation means is tight, functionally accurate gameplay. It should strive to be as realistic as possible.

And relying on imagination is a crutch. It's the same mentality as explaining away sloppy mechanics and exploitations using the 'Roleplay' excuse.

The look of Skyrim-style active dodging doesn't bother me, because I fight in first person. What does bother me is that it is too awkward and tedious for me. I still do it, and it's kind of fun, but I wish it were less cumbersome. Characters who succeed in combat by dodging attacks, not just soaking them up http://statcdn.fandango.com/MPX/image/NBCU_Fandango/77/363/RockyBalboa_FinalFight.jpg, are my preference. Deft Movement is one of my favorite perks because it gives me a chance of avoiding all damage without my fingers having to perform monkey tricks.

I enjoy the active blocking in Oblivion and Skyrim. A single click of a button is all that's needed to pull it off. If there were a similar trick for initiating a dodge -- either a standard dodge, or one of several we select in advance as we preselect a Dragon Shout in advance, or one selected for us at random -- then dodging might be more fun for me.

I'm not opposed to circle strafing or to "being fished for attacks" (although I don't know what the latter is). Anything that makes dodging more interesting or manageable sounds good to me.

I think that Duke Patrick's combat mod for Skyrim would be the perfect model for a new combat system.

• It is applicable for both 3rd and 1st person.
• Historical, realistic and tactical.
• Blends player and character skill.

The day TES turns into a combat simulator is the day I stop buying them.

It's always been one. At all points in the series, Combat has been the primary mechanism of interaction. It's always been about fighting monsters. It is the activity that the most players spend the most time doing, and the activity that virtually EVERY player engages in. Making the games core mechanic GOOD shouldn't be something to be argued against. Leaving it as a bare bones hack and slash slop-fest because you're afraid of the S word is in no ones interest.

Making it as Simulation-like as possible, in all it's aspects, should be the ultimate goal of any game that focuses on immersion. And focusing on the cardinal component of that game (in this case the combat) should be the first priority. There is, ultimately, going to be a threshold where the simulator aspects push too far, but we're nowhere near that yet. That point should only ever be because of tediousness, or technical limitations.