mmmm...yes. I pretty much agree! In the SCA new fighters almost always start with BIG Shields!

And this mod will do exactly that! I may even get your mod to so I have a HUGE shield for my beginer characters!

With this mod as you get good at parrying you can use smaller Shields and even just a single weapon or your hands if you get really REALLY good!

Sounds good to me Duke. I'll be awaiting more info about the progress and I'll be active on this topic. As stated above by Psymon TIE has very good stats for weapons and armour which I like a lot, I hope you played your game with TIE or at least tried. I'm just hoping this will work nicely with TIE and cheers for the INI editable :foodndrink:
I hope if you don't mind me saying but my current character is using a one handed blunt weapon without a shield, I play him on dodging ( Can't run backwards much because of Combat Archery ) and counter attack also I rarely parry.. with the axe ( first it was a wooden club you know probably the weakest blunt weapon in the game, I used it because it weighted in TIE 8 feathers which was probably the best choice since fatigue played and still plays a big role in fighting for me, changed to a Fine Steel Axe which weights 14 feathers and after 5-6 power attacks relentlessly I'm out of juice which leaves me vulnerable but the enemy is probably dead by then, and I also attack bowmen with my bare hands since they can't counter attack when I get close unless they have a weapon of some sort..) In my current game the weight of the weapon and clothing greatly affects my movement speed I can't remember how was it in Vanilla but in TIE its much more hardcoe which is nice. So I'm hoping I won't have to alter my strategy when I try the game with your Melee Combat mod. Also if you are interested the reason my character survived was because his highest attribute would be endurance.
Looking forward to the release good luck Duke!

you:
Duke- will there be any ini options like Combat Archery has for weapon damage?

me:
YES!

you:
And will this have the scripted parts that take mod added weapons into account as before? I've not checked that out yet.

me: yes!

you:
I'll admit that it does give an advantage over low level monsters and most animals -


Me:
right, because we hunt most animals not "dual" with them! But I am willing to listen to any suggestions from anyone to make the combat with animals harder as long as the suggestions keep my mod out of high fantasy. But I think you will find it hard enough when they attack in packs!


You:
With good shield practice and footing and getting around the opponents blocking and style the mod is totally survivable and if that makes you tougher than most at least now there is a reason for that.


Me:
You are so right! And Footworks is many times more important now than even in my old SCA mod.

you:
A game concept I pay attention to a lot is character skill versus player skill.

me:
I also am very interested in this area of game mechanics. The player should be able to supply all the cerebral work while the PC provides the physical work.

You should put this as the FAQ :rofl:

cool ..this will give so many tactic options instead having (good looking) point and click fights.... ...if using a huge shield you could stand even against a high skilled fighter for some time by just being patient and blocking his hits...of course opening your defense would bring that to a quick ending....maybe you would be able to push him backwards so that he probably will fall or stumble over a dead body or whatever... using a shield this way will give you maybe also some extra time to cry for help...

here are the resources for the legion Scutum to play around with ( no need to dl the complete resource pack for it)... if you want to use it..credits go to Grumble Punk

:foodndrink:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/user/onra

I really look forward to this, it looks very much like the melee combat mod I'd want. I don't know much details yet, so this may already be covered, but there are two details that are important to me:

1. Realistic Fatigue compatibility: I really cannot imagine playing without RF (or a similar mod), so compatibility with it is really important. I'm not sure how much you plan to control the fatigue, but maybe (if necessary) you can have an ini option for that? Removing a bit of fatigue now and then when the player does something that cost extra fatigue (like taking a big blow) should be directly compatible though.

2. Not make combat any easier. I see the sense in a successful block stopping all damage (or most, as you can probably consider damage to include the weariness you need a night's sleep to wear off too), but then it needs to be considerably harder to successfully block an attack, etc. You know infinitely more than me about realistic combat, and I'm sure you've thought of things like this, I just want to express how important I think it is that the game is and stays a challenge.

I doubt its gonna be any easier if you've read what Duke posted its supposed to make melee combat even more challenging especially for people who don't use shields. Isn't this supposed to be a realism mod?

With the older SCA melee mod it was easier to block and attack (and thankfully) because you would be reloading constantly if you couldn't.

With the new one there will be passive and active blocking - with active being more effective. Size of the shield will matter more too.

Is there an estimated time of completion for the mod? I'm actually looking forward to it as this could replace roughly 4 or 5 mods I'm using now to simulate more realistic combat.

If the list of features stays as it is, this would replace (for me at least) Kuertees's Attribute/Skill-based damage, Deadly Reflex, AFC v2, Realistic Weapon Reach mod and possibly Andrew's Realistic Equipment.

I do enjoy the gore factor of Deadly Reflex, but if they can't work together, I'll just svck it up and enjoy the more realistic feel of medieval combat.

well I am not "trying" to make it un-compatible with DR, in fact a few years ago SkyCaptain and I collaborated a little to over come one conflict concerning the removed recoil effect. The issue is that both mods would need to be in constant communication with each other to "share" the time needed for animations, game settings, effects, combatstyles, AI, calls to playidle to stop in progress animations...oh and so much more.

Then anytime one of the mods changed the other might not work properly. However this does not mean I know for a fact they will not work together, you can try it and see if you like the way your game is with both. But keep in mind you need to unload both mods, do a clean install of ONE of them, then play test it for a good while BEFORE you report bugs.

However, in the end "mods are like soup". Tomato and onion look good and taste great together. But alphabet and pea soup are sickening to look at and taste terrible.

Progress:

[Done ] Aim under shield/weapon bonus
[ ] momentum damage bonus
[ ] Melee combat Tokens for creatures
[ ] Merge in Duke Patrick’s Smash of the titans mod
[ ] Assorted game setting changes
[ ] Make the INI file
[ ] Separate out my legacy items such as buffed traps changes
[80% ] Finish the Read Me file
[ ] Gather all the resources into a zip
[ ] Something I am not remembering just now.
[ ] Beta Testing
[ ] Overcome issue with detecting model lengths in script loops.


This would go a little faster if someone would "edit" the almost done my read me file for me. It is very big!

What do you need done? I'm happy to help if it'll speed up the release.

I have a word for windows file (I can change it to any format if you need another) that I would need to email to you.
I would need an email address that takes attachments.

It will read in a similar way as the 1st page in this thread with disjointed nuggets of information ton that need to be rearranged and organized.
Some spelling corrections as well. A little grammar if you are up for it... but that is not as much a concern as organization and spelling.

PM me please if you are very sure you want to try to take this on, it is no small job as you will need to read thru it, catch the information that seems separated and then move the info around and rephrase the information. Add a table of contents.

You will get credit in the read me for your work naturally, and a disclaimer that I came in on top of your hard work and messed it up a little with my own edits before final release.
:whistling:

I just sent you a PM. I might not be around much longer tonight, but I've been spending too much time on the forums lately, so I'm usually available.

Progress:

[Done ] Aim under shield/weapon bonus
[ ] momentum damage bonus
[ ] Melee combat Tokens for creatures
[ ] Merge in Duke Patrick’s Smash of the titans mod
[ ] Assorted game setting changes
[ ] Make the INI file
[ ] Separate out my legacy items such as buffed traps changes
[80% ] Finish the Read Me file
[ ] Gather all the resources into a zip
[ ] Something I am not remembering just now.
[ ] Beta Testing
[DONE ] Overcome issue with detecting model lengths in script loops.

Is good. I'm really looking forward to this, once it's complete.

Progress:

[Done ] Aim under shield/weapon bonus
[ Done] momentum damage bonus for player and actors.
[ ] Melee combat Tokens for creatures
[ ] Merge in Duke Patrick’s Smash of the titans mod
[ ] Assorted game setting changes
[ ] Make the INI file
[ ] Separate out my legacy items such as buffed traps changes
[80% ] Finish the Read Me file
[ ] Gather all the resources into a zip
[ ] Something I am not remembering just now.
[ ] Beta Testing
[DONE ] Overcome issue with detecting model lengths in script loops.

@ panurgy

Could you please include the below text in the read me file you are working on?

Thanks!


My old Momentum damage mod would not work for H2H, I have found a way to include H2H now! So momentum damage will work for H2H in my Melee Combat mod!

Momentum bonus description: Extra Weapon damage can be generated by the momentum from your movement!

And this offers an experience that the developers of the game thought the players could not handle. (The first person view of spinning around for a power attack.)

I tend to play Hack and Slash characters. I do enough "thinking" in my mundane job so when I play I do not like to do a lot of thinking, just killing!

I have noticed that once I spot a likely NPC, often I would charge in and sometimes leap into the air to come pouncing down on the NPS for the attack. I came to realize I was subconsciously excepting the blow to be more deadly.

This mod will now do just that!

Under the right circumstance you will get a substantial attack bonus to the damage you do with your blade or blunt weapon.

Also, under the right conditions you will go into what athletes and Sword fighters call THE ZONE.

This Matrix effect provides several new advantages. Accuracy with your weapon attack will be better. You will get to see some cool hack and slash blood effects, and you will be able to combine different movements to create what look like new weapon swings! You can discover these pseudo new shots by staring one kind of attack and changing to another at just the right time. This has always been in the game by serendipity (not by design) however the slow motion makes this much easer to do now! Read more about this below.

There are a variety of ways to enact this momentum attack bonus. But beware that the bonus comes with a price. When you get the bonus you also will consume a more fatigue.

The more encumbrance you have relative to your maximum the more fatigue it consumes.

One way to enact this momentum bonus is to reach a particular speed in running. So this part of the feature may not work for low level characters with low speeds.

Another way to enact the bonus is to jump up, and then as you come down if you drop more than 4 feet you will get the attack bonus. So this means you must have enough acrobatics skill to jump at least that high as well. For a super momentum bonus to your attack damage do a running jumping pounce on your target for much higher damage!

The bonus is determined by your strength. The bigger you are the harder you fall...on your opponent that is! And then this is multiplied by how fast you are moving or how far you fall.

This bonus is great for leaping down onto unsuspecting NPC or creatures from bridges, buildings or high rock formations.

No Momentum bonus for running backwards. You must run forward (the direction your weapon hits in) to get the running damage bonus. However the Jump and Drop bonus is unaffected by the direction you are facing and moving in.

Have fun trying what are almost NEW weapon blows now by combining different types of movements and different moments to swing the weapon.

Thus you can shape the aesthetic and physical results of the weapon blow by using slightly different times of when to move, and when to start the blow and what direction you turn.
For example, by running up onto a rock formation (as the NPC are chasing close behind you) you then flip back over the NPC, then swing your weapon as you are coming down. This can result in a devastating blow as you land on the ground behind them.


This is another PC game idea I have had for many years, to allow players to CREATE their own attacks in the game and base the results on the physics and timing of the players custom moves.

Many games have tried to fake this idea but they still only used canned shots with scripted moves.

Spin Shot feature:
----------------

Spin your PC around 360 (using your mouse or keys) while you throw any melee weapon blow and you can get the rotational momentum in your attack. This will create devastating blows but with much risk of exposing your back!

However this move is not easy to do, you can get disoriented if you are not careful with this move. This makes the move very realistic as well. Your PC stats will determine how much damage is done with this move. There is a player adjustable factor to tone down the damage if you are not playing a lethal version of Oblivion.

For the most part the bonus (the additional damage done beyond the normal damage of the weapon with all the factors of weapon skill, strength, speed and so on) comes from the speed and strength of the body regardless of the weapon.

If the weapon is big and heavy it's slower speed reduces the bonus, if it is light and small it gets up to speed fast but has little ability to store momentum. In reality impulse is better with lighter weapons but this is getting beyond the scope of this mod and most game models. It is best to just stay with a simple balance of weight and speed, as long as you do not focus on TYPES of damage done as the game will not allow this with melee weapons anyway.

Keep in mind the weapon has all it's own calcs for damage. This mod only is concerned with the "extra" damage that can be generated from the speed and strength of the PC body by momentum.

Bonus damage = ( Strength x Speed ) / 5 ) Then divided again by the player adjusted setting.

So if you use any mod that reduces speed this will greatly effect this bonus damage.

Acrobatics and agility will determine the "delay time" between second attempts.
The less agile and skilled you are the more time it will take to try the spin shot again without tripping and falling.

Delay in seconds = ( 100 / acrobatics ) + ( 100 / agility ) + 1.75

If you try to do the spin shot too soon you will trip and get this message "Not stable enough yet to spin!"

To trigger the spin shot you must be using a melee weapon or H2H, you must not be pressing your move forward key and you must attack and turn in the same direction.
This will not work with any move backward attack. You will not be able to do this under other conditions as well such as riding on a horse or swimming.

This move will cost a little fatigue and the more encumbrance you have relative to your maximum the more fatigue it consumes.

Succeeding means you put the bonus damage in your attack, this does not mean you landed the blow. The Spin bonus will be wasted if you miss your target.
When you succeed at putting the spin bonus in your attack you will get either the trainer message

“Spinning Bonus %.”

or

"Running and/or jumping plus spin total bonus is %."

These “trainer” messages can be turned off, read the rest of the read me file to find out how.

My first draft of the script worked only half the time. Many thanks to Reneer for
helping me to get it to work reliably so I could continue my progress of evolving the feature. Without his help I may not have gone on to completed this spin shot featuer.



[youtube]9zd3xWntH50[/youtube]


[youtube]3YsK86heL8M[/youtube]



Jumping RISK
------------------

If you take the risk of jumping at your opponent while they can attack you, you may be bashed down out of the air if hit with significant damage.
It really adds to the anticipation of the maneuver to see if it will work and kill them or get your butt knocked into the dirt! This new feature sure makes things scary for me to be up close. I did not realize how much I was jumping around before. Now I want my feet planted firmly on the ground for balance, stability and traction Instead of hopping around like a rabbit, gez… how...realistic!





Player adjustable setting
-----------------------------

Default of setting is 1. This setting will be in the INI file.

To reduce the damage bonus 1/10th normal set the factor to 10
This will divide the bonus damage by 10.

You can turn off the Bullet time feature in the INI file.

You can turn off the trainer message feature in the Ini file.

This is sounding more and more like a true improvement over Deadly Reflex 5, instead of just adding more bells and whistles like DR6. I am looking forward to this one! If it changes melee combat the way Combat Archery changed archery, then it'll be worth the switch.

I am not sure why, but I have this smoldering desire to add a "body chuck" attack to my mod. Can anyone tell me where to get a KF file for the animation? Basically a lurch forward shoulder and upper arm leading attack type move.

Anything that would be close I could work with, or if someone can make one for me?

I take it this is also going to incorporate the mechanics from Combat Geometry? I found playing with that one extremely difficult. Even one conjurer could easily kill me, as concentrating on the conjured monster, and not the summoner, I would spend all my time fighting off the summon. Going after the summoner, would give the summoned monster a free shot at my back, more often than not, which would result in a one hit kill. (with me ending up dead.....)

I would help if I could, but I like the idea. Its an often over-looked option that can actually make a huge difference in a fight. (assuming you aren't talking about a tackle, but rather a shoulder-first rush to catch someone off balance or off guard) I would love the option to be able to "hard" parry and purposefully meet my oppenents attack with much more force than is required to stop it and beat their weapon away and then close with a shoulder first rush to get them off their feet or to feign at the last minute and duck and slash at their throat or center. (It's risky as heck, but its fun to do when sparring. Plus with your spin-attack mechanic it sound like this could fit right it)
Anyway just my two-cents.
I eagerly await the full release so I can have a trio of your excellent combat mods.

One question: What are your intentions with the gore/blood part of the system? Will it be more of a -blood gushes in special circumstances- type or will there be parts flying when hits land correctly?

Also, something that has come up in real combat, but is rarely addressed in games (as it's frustrating AND an embarassing way to die): Weapons getting stuck in a target. imagine, you're fighting two bandits, you block one successfully, catch him with a perfect spinning strike... Then gasp in horror as you realize your axe is stuck in his ribcage and his partner isn't stopping to let you get it back. Now you have to take on a pissed off bandit with a claymore with your bare hands (or whatever spell is handy). Have you ever thought of this, or would the scripting be too much of a nightmare (I'm guessing it'd be pretty lengthy)?

I imagine this is where unarmered fighting skill would come in handy. I don't really think Oblivion's combat system is robust enough to allow dodges and movement that would truely simulate real life fighting .

Edit: Even so I will definitely incorperate this into my Oblivion install when I have the time. It might take me forever to really test mods these days since I haven't had the desire to play video games that much lately but I still get a lot of enjoyment out of an occasional Oblivion playing spree.

I completely agree!

However those "bloody features" have been done before by other mods and although some are worthy of incorporating into the game play for realism, for me they are just a lower priority to other combat features that have not been done before in PC games. I have little time and interest in just copying other peoples mods.

The lose of weapon control (such as when a sword bites into and sticks in a wood shield ) are important to realism but are just not in balance (time and results ) to the deadlines. As an animatroics designer I understand the need for precision. I learned in my career however, that if I did not finish a project before it was perfect, I would not get anything done.