Commoners and Magic

Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:42 pm

Just a quick question really. Played Oblivion a bit and did the Aleswell quest(Zero Visibility), and in particular I found reading http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ancotar%27s_Journal. Between that, and the "http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Interview_with_a_Dark_Elf", it makes me question whether the distrust for magic we see in Skyrim is unique to the Nords, or that it is more commonly associated with most people not being educated on magic in general.

On this, I think it is a bit unfair to single out the Nords uniquely, given that all the previous games have been set in times when the Mages Guild has still been a faction dedicated to educate, and had a strong presence under the Empire. All major cities in Oblivion, and several of the larger settlements in Morrowind, had a Guildhall. Skyrim, on the other hand, it set when this faction has been gone for 200 years and its successors doesn't seem to have the presence or the goal of the Mages Guild.

So, am I being completely mad in suggesting that the recent-ish distrust of magic in Skyrim doesn't seem likely to be unique, or do you think I have a point?

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victoria johnstone
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:21 pm

The Nords have always distrusted magickal practice, despite the fact that magicka is an almost universally recognized fact, like the wind or tides in our world.

One must keep in mind that the Nords are quasi-xenophobes, accepting almost all pogroms against Mer (who as a fractious race, are innately talent with the magickal arts, aside from perhaps the Bosmer). The Reachmen, or Witchmen, are ancestral enemies of the Nords as well.
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Rozlyn Robinson
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:36 pm

While the guild's original purpose was to educate others I think that goal ended up dying long before the guild did. Even in Morrowind the only guild that was teaching non-members was Ald'Ruhn and even then the person teaching people was a member of the Imperial Cult and not the guild.
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Danielle Brown
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:50 pm

I'd agree 100% with that assessment. The Mage's Guild in later years was quite concerned with prohibition s against certain things rather than discovering and the cataloguing of any and all magickal knowledge and helping any with sufficient financial means.

And therein was one of the two problems with Galerion's MG. He'd allow any to learn, provided they had the funds. And he established the Schools of thought.
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GPMG
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:39 am

No they haven't. While the Nords have never been particularly interested in magical endeavours, as Tsun and several in-game mages point out, the hatred and distrust of magic is a recent development. The reaction was caused by the series of magical catastrophies in the last 200 or so years, including the Oblivion Crisis (which was caused by mages), the collapse of Winterhold (which is believed to have been caused by mages), and the Great War (elves are more prone to using magic, and they are now the enemy of mankind).

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Darren
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:49 am


Lol. I won't debate the Nords / Mer relationship, as much easily obtainable information contrary to your point exists. And, the Oblivion Crisis, while started by Mankar's (a mages) wish, the cultists were not all mages and mages were not solely responsible.
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chloe hampson
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:26 pm

It's also worth noting that there was a time where Nordic magic was A-okay, but everything else was the spell of those blasted heathen elves. And no, I'm not talking about the Thu'um. How well anyone reacts to magic is directly proportional to how often they see it used or whether or not they're an accepted member of the community. It's more often a case of Us vs. Them, depending on what culture said practitioner is evoking and from where.

So how often is magic used by commoners? Depends on who's around them. You are seemingly be able to teach a child how to do basic spellcraft, so its not exactly like you have to go off to dedicate your entire life in order to have some basic understanding of its usage.

^Sorry, witch-runes were still a thing on most Nordic weapons in Morrowind. While magic in general was more then likely shunned, it hasn't completely languished away at that point, so the comparatively recent thing still stands. How different things would be if Winterhold was still an economic powerhouse would also play into how well magic would still stand in Skyrim. Rural villages would certainly lambaste the practice, but cities that receive a fair amount of traffic would probably hold a more tempered opinion.

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Travis
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Nords had many powerful mages in their history, most famous one is Shalidor.
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A Lo RIkIton'ton
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:58 pm

Wow, what a great response.

Tsun: "Well met, mage of Skyrim. The Nords may have forgotten their forefathers' respect for the Clever Craft, but your comrades throng this hall. Here in Shor's house we honor it still."

Onmund: "Magic is shunned by most. If it can't be swung over your head and used to crack skulls, most Nords want nothing to do with it. Magic is seen as something for elves, and weaker races." and " Nords generally don't trust magic, so it's not off to a good start. Throw in the Oblivion Crisis, which was caused by magic-users, and the troubles now with the Aldmeri Dominion, who are elves and magic users. And finally take the fact that the College is the only thing left standing after most of Winterhold was destroyed. It's all fairly damning."
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Scott Clemmons
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:13 pm

Seems to me that attitudes towards magic and public aptitude at magecraft vary by region, race, and time period. Everything from culture, religion, recent events, and even geography can affect the acceptance and proliferation of magic.

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Kelly John
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:26 am

It's worth noting that every Nordic Jarl has a court mage, and besides at Winterhold, we rarely actually see this so-often brought up hatred for magic in Skyrim.
Most of the innkeepers don't seem to like it, but some of them don't even seem to hate magic so much as the College of Winterhold itself. I'm paraphrasing, but I remember at least one of them says something along the lines of: "You'd never think to learn from a proper Nord like the Jarl's court mage."
Most of the hate seems to be over the Oblivion Crisis and what happened in Winterhold, which, you have to admit, is very suspicious looking.
Not to mention the guards all have good things to say about magic at best, and neutral or reasonably cautious at worst.

All this magic hate seems to come from only two places. Gossiping Innkeepers, and Winterhold itself. I'm sure their are other isolated examples, but I don't see the wide-spread hate that people keep talking about. What I see is a predominantly warrior culture that acknowledges the existance and benefits of magic, but doesn't put them on the pedestal that most other races do. They just don't seem to care much about it one way or the other. Remember Ralof's reaction to you choosing the mage guardian stone? He basically just shrugs says "to each his own".

That said, I do think humans in general would've become a little more weary of all things arcane post-Oblivion crisis. And the attack of the Thalmor would only strengthen this.
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[Bounty][Ben]
 
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Post » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:12 pm

Yeah, sorry about that. Hard to format stuff on my cell. And in reference to your quoted material, how does that strengthen your initial point? If anything, it just reinforces the Nords distrust of magicka and its users. It's likely been culturally stigmatized since before Talos, way before as the Nords have been fighting Mer of all sorts for as long as they've dwelt in Tamriel. I'm not arguing that they've never practiced in one way or the other, but I'd have to agree with Dargor that the Nords see Nord magicka as acceptable, and not it's usage by other races.
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Cat Haines
 
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