Seriusly?..
What the heck is wrong with this communitys thoughts 'bout mods... Bethsda might as well just release a blank game containing nothing and say "I'm sure mods will add something." and there will be around five people complaining that the game doesn't have ANY features, 'nor gameplay, whatsoever...
and here's how you'll respond: "Mods will fix it."

When I buy a game I expect something that allows me to do things on my own--because it's a game, right? If I wanted the whole thing spelled out for me, I have plenty of books to read.

What is the problem with a compas?

im glad the compass is returning as tobe completely honest a map and compass are the 2 most vital items needed for survival. What sould happen though is it should point to the location of the quest item if the quest giver gives enough information, ie like when you ask a local for directions to a place in town. it would be better if could be like ythe more people you ask, the better the chance at finding said item.

Here's what I'm looking for:
1. Directions given by NPCs to specific locations related to quests.
2. A compass in order to be able to tell if I'm headed the right way. (If an NPC tells me 'Head east', I want to be sure I know where east is.)
3. Points of interest to appear on the compass ONLY after you've found them on your own.
4. IF the quest marker returns, make it OPTIONAL.

A compass is fine, hell, even Morrowind had a Compass that displayed points of interest. The Range at which they were displayed (As small boxes on the minimap) was very small though, and it wasn't omniscient, because of that Fog-oF-War type of effect it had.


I'm just hoping they don't have points of Interest labeled, of if they are labeled, make the range much smaller. New Vegas's range was pretty good, but Oblivion's was damn near an eighth of the map.

Who said that's the "pinnacle of game design?" Who even implied that?

Your straw man has been outed.


And I "just love it" when message board posters flail away at straw men instead of addressing issues.


Yes, they were, or rather for two interlocking reasons:

1. It requires time and resources to provide sufficient information in-game to make it possible for players to find things/places/people, and
2. Many players become frustrated if they can't find things/places/people quickly and easily and with minimal effort.

Beth had and has the choice to either provide sufficient information in-game to make the finding of things/places/people at least simple enough to hopefully not cause too much frustration to the short-attention-spanned while providing an additional level of detail for the benefit of those who enjoy a challenge in games, or to just slap a huge blinking GPS unit on each and every thing of any importance in the game. They chose the latter.


Yes - if you count the "purpose" as saving time and resources and making the game easier for the benefit of the easily frustrated, yes - the quest markers serve that purpose well. If you include the overarching "purpose" of providing challenge for the benefit of those who appreciate it, it kicks that purpose square in the teeth.


Then we're in agreement, and the only issue is when "then" is.

I'd say though that, as far as Beth goes at least, "then" is never. The games are too big and have too broad of a fanbase that includes too many casual gamers who simply won't buy the game at all if they think, or hear, that it's too comlicated. Beth has a vested interest in aiming the games squarely at the least common denominator, and that's what they'll do. The "better way" (which is really just the old way of providing sufficient information in the game that the map marker is no longer necessary) is going to have to come from another game from another company - a company that doesn't have to seek to maximize their profits in order to pay all their executive salaries and thus doesn't have to tailor the game for the broadest possible appeal.

yes it does GI even confirmed quest markers
but they already confirmed toggleable HUD
and you can just chose a different quest for it

What's the difference between sufficient information like "go follow this road, until you see that then turn left, then go foward Y miles...", and following an arrow on the map and compass?


I'm sorry your highness, you won't get the game you want. Those pesky console peasants ruin everything!

i like the pointer. i didnt like the quest in oblivion from the dutchess or bruma, when you had to follow dicections in a dairy to get to land marks that arnt highlighted on the compass. on my first playthrough i gave up entirly, but i did it on my second playthrough. maybe something between the 2 would do, like no pointer untill you get close to the objective or marker untill your are near the objective and then it goes away.

I was with you until you said that. I play on 360, I am 30 years old, i love achievements, and i hated the quest markers in oblivion. I also loved morrowind and thought it was better than oblivion in a lot of ways. Don't be so generalised, it's not fair.

oh and before you say anything, i have a top end pc but i choose not to game with it as i hate pc gaming i have nothing against pc gamers though.

You honestly can't see the difference there. Really?

Here's a helper, one forces you to actually look at the World and find the way somewhat yourself, and one makes you follow a blip.


I feel absolutely no sense of achievement when almost literally walked to the target, they might as well give you a chauffeur who fights the monsters for you as well. Keep in mind one of the biggest selling points of games like this is *exploration*.

That would be the role-playing part of a role-playing game. One plays the role of an actual person in that actual world.

Now - if we wish to believe that everybody on Nirn has a compass floating in their line of sight with glowing icons on it that unerringly match up with people/places/things of importance, and thus nobody ever gives anybody else directions, but instead simply causes a new map marker to appear on their magical compass, then I guess it would be within the role-play to believe that one's character is similarly equipped. Since, however, it seems safe to presume that nobody else on Nirn possesses such things, not only the inclusion of them, but the reliance upon them to the exclusion of actual directions given by actual characters, cripples playing the role of a real person in that world.

I am not 12, and I like the quest markers, most recent open world games have them for a reason, people like them, it makes the game less frustrating and more fun. Gaming is about entertainment. Why do you bash people in such general ways? Hows does that help anything?

On the other hand, I like exploring and searching for stuff myself. I think FNV handled this well as most of the quest you could complete with out the markers to guide you, but if you got stuck you did not have to spend pointless time being frustrated then giving up or using a wiki.

Quest markers should show a general location... once within that general location (based on the quest you want to complete) locals, if any can provide further detail to the end location by using direction and land markers to guide you closer to the actual quest.

...So, when your mom tells you to go buy some milk at so-and-so store, and you aren't quite sure where it is, do you ask her for directions and then follow them, or do you follow a red blip in front of your face that guides you to where the store is? Removing the quest marker and instead using directions adds a sense of realism to a game, a sense of realism I'd very much like to see.

You really need to work on this bitterness.

And lumping in all these different things together under "waaaah, ADD kiddies ruining my game!" makes you come across as even younger than the players you're maligning.



As for the OP - yeah, that sounds more like the "cave nearby" markers, not the quest marker. Locations Of Interest.

------
(I've never understood the whole issue with fast travel, honestly. Before you can FT somewhere.... you have to "actually walk or run to get there". And after you've already walked there, and killed the monsters in between..... well, ok, you can choose to go sightseeing and walk back across the completely threat-free terrain, or you can FT back. Where's the issue?)

So you have a sense of achievement by following a clearly told, detailed path? Following instructions step by step?
hmm... there was a term for it, used for the quest indicator as well, what was it...

oh yea, HAND HOLDING!

So, I ask again: How is it less achieving, how is it less "hand holding" following a clear set of path, than following a single arrow?


Yes, people cannot mark things on the map, it's so unrealistic.

But seriously, there are lot worse "roleplay-breaking" (a more fancy term for "immersion breaking") things by the nature of the game itself. Like, how can you carry 3 swords and an iron armor the same time? How do you know everybody's name already? If you die, how can you just go back in time and try again?

Really? You see no difference between being given an address and having to locate it yourself and having a box on the dashboard constantly telling you "Turn....right....here...Go....left...now?"

I think I've found part of the problem.

Here's the diference then, spelled out: How much thinking one has to do in either case. In the former, one must watch the environment and anolyze the cues given ("Hmm...there's a road, where's the sign? Ah- yes, that's the road to [town] so I need to turn here.") while in the latter one need not think beyond "Keep red arrow directly ahead."

I don't have a huge problem with the map markers (and the omniscient journal, which goes hand-in-hand with them) IF they only exist as a supplementary tool for those times when all else fails. I spent a frustrating amount of time wandering Molag Amur in Morrowind, looking for Alas Ancestral Tomb, and reached the point at which I would've welcomed a map marker to show me the way.

The thing that I object to is not the map marker and journal being an addition to information given in-game, but them being a substitute for information given in-game. If they were a simple addition, I could simply toggle them off and ignore them (well - it'd take a mod to toggle that damned pop-up journal off, but still...) But they don't simply serve as additions to information given in-game. They take the place of information given in-game. NPCs don't give you directions, which directions spawn a map marker. They just say, "Let me mark it on your map," and that's that.

That's what I object to. And the reason that I phrase it the way I do - that I point at the casual gamers - is that Beth, by doing it that way, has created a system in which the desires of the casual gamers are met instead of, rather than in addition to those who seek out challenge. I don't intend to fault the casual gamers (though I understand that my tendency toward snarkiness certainly doesn't help), but to merely make that distinction, since it's clearly a distinction that Beth makes. They could create a game that seeks to appeal to both groups or a game that seeks to appeal to one at the expense of the other. All too often, they choose the latter course, and when they do, it's invariably at the expense of those of us who appreciate challenge.

I already had a go at him for generalising, as did someone else, as have you. He has chosen to ignore all three posts, what a surprise

Not a quest compass again it kills adventuring and exploration, compass must show only already discovered places not be fantasy anologue of GPRS

HORRIBLE! Compass icons I guess it means? Or quest markers?

Whatever of those it means. HORRIBLE!

Compass icons ruined the excitement of exploration and finding something in Oblivion for me. It felt great in Morrowind how you actually had to pay attention to your surroundings, because who knows, you could miss a nice hidden dungeon otherwise. Compass icons pretty much destroys all of this, which is supposed to be a great part of an RPG like Skyrim. It BETTER be togglable if it's in.

Quest markers ruined the experience of thinking for yourself in Oblivion for me. No longer did I have to pay attention to what people said or implied, or to my surroudings as well for that matter. Quests are supposed to be a matter of thinking, of doing something yourself, in my opinion! It should not be some mindless following of a red arrow on your compass, which quest markers pretty much make it. It BETTER be togglable if it's in.

Or I'm going to simply mod it out. Should be fairly easy, seeing as it's basically just to overwrite things with transparent textures. But the majority of TES players play on console and can't mod this out. I feel for them.

Compass icons and quest markers are in my opinion some of the worst things that can be forced. It can work nicely for people who just want to follow a goal without thinking too much,, but not for those that actually want to play thinking fully and to pay attention to your surroundings. Exploration and thinking are key parts of an RPG like a TES-game, and should be focused entirely on, rather than forcing the player against it.

Sigh, everyone forgets that one game already solved this issue beautifully. We don't have to wait. Red Dead Redemption had red highlighted "search areas" so you weren't just taking a stab in the dark in a huge world, but it didn't take you within inches of the target. Aka, he's somewhere in the Market District, which is this way, keep going east, instead of, he's at 45'W 25N' and moving east...
They could just do a "getting warmer" system like Marco Polo too. Have a little color changing icon on the compass or something that gos from Green (far) to shades of yellow (near) to red, (hot). Then you can be general without having what amounts to a radar device...

Except you didn't raise any issues. All you ever do is whine that the rest of the gaming community isn't as "smart" or "sophisticated" as you are. :whistling:

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of markers, but until they implement a better way of helping folks get where they need to go I'll take them over nothing. That doesn't mean I'm going to look down my nose at folks who love the fact that they are there.