Compass with quest objective marker?! : V - Skyrim

» Mon May 02, 2011 11:33 pm

What's the difference between sufficient information like "go follow this road, until you see that then turn left, then go foward Y miles...", and following an arrow on the map and compass?

Well this is one of those instances on this forum where the word "immersion" actually fits when used. In this case I'd much rather be told where to go and how to get there than shown. That said there need to be support in game for it. The directions would need to be recorded in some sort of journal, so that if I come back after a couple of days I don't need to have a photographic memory to remember them. You should also be able to ask other npc's along the way for additional hints leading you there, etc.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:00 am

I don't have a huge problem with the map markers (and the omniscient journal, which goes hand-in-hand with them) IF they only exist as a supplementary tool for those times when all else fails. I spent a frustrating amount of time wandering Molag Amur in Morrowind, looking for Alas Ancestral Tomb, and reached the point at which I would've welcomed a map marker to show me the way.

The thing that I object to is not the map marker and journal being an addition to information given in-game, but them being a substitute for information given in-game. If they were a simple addition, I could simply toggle them off and ignore them (well - it'd take a mod to toggle that damned pop-up journal off, but still...) But they don't simply serve as additions to information given in-game. They take the place of information given in-game. NPCs don't give you directions, which directions spawn a map marker. They just say, "Let me mark it on your map," and that's that.

That's what I object to. And the reason that I phrase it the way I do - that I point at the casual gamers - is that Beth, by doing it that way, has created a system in which the desires of the casual gamers are met instead of, rather than in addition to those who seek out challenge. I don't intend to fault the casual gamers (though I understand that my tendency toward snarkiness certainly doesn't help), but to merely make that distinction, since it's clearly a distinction that Beth makes. They could create a game that seeks to appeal to both groups or a game that seeks to appeal to one at the expense of the other. All too often, they choose the latter course, and when they do, it's invariably at the expense of those of us who appreciate challenge.

I do agree with you now that you have clarified your statment. The issue with OB was you had to use the markers, and I agree that should not be the case. Like FNV quests(can't recall if F03 did this) enough info was given so you could realistically complete the quest on your own if you choose most of the time. Or you can use markers if you choose. Beth listen on the fast travel debate, satisfying both sides(though I still hear people say they wish FT was flat out removed for some bizzare reason) I hope they do the same with the markers.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:19 am

What's the difference between sufficient information like "go follow this road, until you see that then turn left, then go foward Y miles...", and following an arrow on the map and compass?

npc given directions are natural, and encourage you to look around at the land to deduce which direction to go. Someone tells you the way to get somewhere using landmarks and compass direction etc, and then you actually have to explore the world - seeking out path-ways and landmarks, being aware of the world you're in and actually using it to get you to your destination. When following the compass marker, you can just zone out and become numb to the beautifully-crafted world around you. Many a time in oblivion did I find I was just sort of zoning out and not really paying attention when I was following a marker, it almost encourages it.

I find it difficult to believe how people cannot even entertain the idea that it is by its inherent design a much less fun or engaging way to do things. It literally boggles the mind.

» Tue May 03, 2011 2:33 am

I find it difficult to believe how people cannot even entertain the idea that it is by its inherent design a much less fun or engaging way to do things. It literally boggles the mind.

Ever get lost in MW? That svcked and was not fun. Ruining in circles trying to look for some rock formation is not my idea of a good time.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:26 am

So you have a sense of achievement by following a clearly told, detailed path? Following instructions step by step?
hmm... there was a term for it, used for the quest indicator as well, what was it...

oh yea, HAND HOLDING!

Hmm, there's a fallacy here, oh yea, STRAWMAN. Who said 'detailed path'? I never advocated a detailed path, and you never gave one.

'West until you reach the river' is a lot less detailed that a magical floating compass.

So, I ask again: How is it less achieving, how is it less "hand holding" following a clear set of path, than following a single arrow?

it's bemusing that you still don't get this.

Yes, people cannot mark things on the map, it's so unrealistic.

Once again, nobody said people can't mark things on a map. However, it is unrealistic to think that everyone knows exactly to sattelite level accuracy where every ant's [censored] is in the entire World.
Someone tells you to go to a dungeon somewhere to the west near a strangely shaped tree vs. someone marking exactly where it was in a medieval themed universe as if they have googlemaps on their iphone.

» Tue May 03, 2011 2:41 am

Good, I love the fact that it's in.

*Takes a turn from the masses and doesn't complain about quest helpers*

» Tue May 03, 2011 7:44 am

Aside from feeling a sense of achievement, some people want to feel a sense of realism. When's the last time you arrived at a location using an arrow to guide you? (GPS doesn't count. I'm sure it didn't exist back when horses and carriages were the best means of travel.)

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:16 am

I really don't like the compass (more like super advanced GPS accurate to within 1 ft of any objective)

I hope they have an option to turn it off... even if they practically force you to rely upon it I will refuse to use it and probably just end up putting tape over it.

» Mon May 02, 2011 10:02 pm

There's another thread about this where I posted...

Todd confirmed the quest markers in this interview.

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1316/elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-bethesda-interview?o=2#listing

"With radiant story we’re not trying to guide you, just make sure you’re picking up things you haven’t already done. It has the same gameflow of our pervious stuff so we have these objectives and we nudge you to them but really, we use the compass for that."

He doesn't say, however, if you can turn it off or not.

» Tue May 03, 2011 3:06 am

Ever get lost in MW? That svcked and was not fun. Ruining in circles trying to look for some rock formation is not my idea of a good time.

Looking for 'some rock formation' is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to do in a fantasy rpg, what it being a fantasy rpg and all. Not sure why you were running in circles though - you should have tried following a road or the directions or something.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:32 am

Looking for 'some rock formation' is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to do in a fantasy rpg, what it being a fantasy rpg and all. Not sure why you were running in circles though - you should have tried following a road or the directions or something.

So getting lost and having a hard time finding what you what is fun for you? I don't understand. Don't be coy, you know what I am saying when I say running in circles, its a common phrase, meaning lost and can't find were you want to go. Thats why I like quest markers so that stuff does not have to happen, it may be fine for you but most players don't like spending long amounts of time seaching for something, feeling like they are just running in circles, being frustrated and then just quiting or using a wiki.

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:03 pm

I actually liked the markers for the most part because there were instances where an NPC just would not spawn or be where he was supposed to be(stuck on a door, wandering or something) and if not for the quest marker making up for the buggy engine Id not have found them. Or some poorly worded directions in a lot of Morrowind quests.

Just let people toggle the individual features(quest marks, compass icons for nearby structures, or the compass altogether) and they can stop crying.

Sigh, everyone forgets that one game already solved this issue beautifully. We don't have to wait. Red Dead Redemption had red highlighted "search areas" so you weren't just taking a stab in the dark in a huge world, but it didn't take you within inches of the target. Aka, he's somewhere in the Market District, which is this way, keep going east, instead of, he's at 45'W 25N' and moving east...
They could just do a "getting warmer" system like Marco Polo too. Have a little color changing icon on the compass or something that gos from Green (far) to shades of yellow (near) to red, (hot). Then you can be general without having what amounts to a radar device...

Lol what do you mean one game? They just copied the system most every MMORPG uses these days

. I wouldnt mind a mix of both quest log directions and generalized quest markers myself.

Edit: Also to others, why should they make things more difficult? Its a video game and most people want to just relax, not everyone enjoys using their brains in their down time(hello TV). Why should Bethesda exclude those people?

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:42 am

So getting lost and having a hard time finding what you what is fun for you? I don't understand. Don't be coy, you know what I am saying when I say running in circles, its a common phrase, meaning lost and can't find were you want to go. Thats why I like quest markers so that stuff does not have to happen, it may be fine for you but most players don't like spending long amounts of time seaching for something, feeling like they are just running in circles, being frustrated and then just quiting or using a wiki.

Sometimes it was annoying in Morrowind, although it was hella fun as well. You just had to think and pay attention. But a lot has developed since then, even so. If we were to have no quest markers or no compass icons in Skyrim, things would be very different. We know people give directions, sometimes even guide you personally. Directions themselves are probably also better. Landscapes are also probably better and easier for directions, as things are far more unique than in any TES game before.

» Tue May 03, 2011 9:15 am

Just let people toggle the individual features(quest marks, compass icons for nearby structures, or the compass altogether) and they can stop crying.

Won't work, since without quest markers, the devs have to do more work in the form of creating these directions, and the voice actors have to say them. Believe it or not, this is a lot of work when there are hundreds of places to be directed to.

To me, it seems like it'll be one or the other, I honestly don't think they'll put in quest markers and then bother with the rest when (I believe) the majority of people are happy with their ye old magic eye compass/googlemaps/GPS system.

» Tue May 03, 2011 6:44 am

Sometimes it was annoying in Morrowind, although it was hella fun as well. You just had to think and pay attention.

You've nailed the entire problem with the old system, and why the new one is overwhelmingly popular with the new fanbase.

» Tue May 03, 2011 8:13 am

You've nailed the entire problem with the old system, and why the new one is overwhelmingly popular with the new fanbase.

Regrettably, agreed.

» Tue May 03, 2011 2:46 am

You've nailed the entire problem with the old system, and why the new one is overwhelmingly popular with the new fanbase.

Sadly, but yes probably. But it's still a sad way to go, is it not? This is probably one of the biggest "simplifications" imo, that is bad.

If directions were simply good and the landscape more unique, it would be no problem at all. Not even for the casual players that doesn't like to think or pay attention that much.

It would be PERFECT for an RPG like TES, imo, where there's such a really strong focus on exploration. There's a big satisfaction in finding a hidden place imo. Or a big satisfaction in following directions and thinking "Where to go now?". Having quest markers and compass icons is as bad as it would be to have a radar system for all nearby enemies or a radar system for all nearby artifacts imo. Not even for the casual players that doesn't like to think or pay attention that much.

» Tue May 03, 2011 4:27 am

Sometimes it was annoying in Morrowind, although it was hella fun as well. You just had to think and pay attention. But a lot has developed since then, even so. If we were to have no quest markers or no compass icons in Skyrim, things would be very different. We know people give directions, sometimes even guide you personally. Directions themselves are probably also better. Landscapes are also probably better and easier for directions, as things are far more unique than in any TES game before.

I agree. Thats why I hope SR is similar to FNV were most quests could be done without the markers because directions were given, unlike OB were you had to use the markers. I like having the markers to avoid the frustrating aspects of Morrowind NOT to aviod the good aspects. As a back up only. I prefer exploring myself. To me its like these level skip features games are using noadays, like in a mario game were you can have the level played for you if you can't get by it or in LA Noire were you can skip action scenes if your having a hard time,etc.

EDIT: I don't see how this is a sad way to go at all, it makes the game better for everyone, Beth was new at this sort of thing with OB same with scaling. They had the right idea, but the wrong execution of it.. Thats why more and more games are using these kind of player help things. People like them(when done the right way, i.e optional).

» Tue May 03, 2011 2:20 am

Awww not the quest marker again , it feels like quests have no value like "please find my son he is" "magic smoke" "there he is ty very much! , farewell" :shakehead:

» Tue May 03, 2011 10:28 am

I say keep the quest marker only in the map. Don't wanna use it, use the no hud system. Want to use it, bring out the map. Simple.

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:14 am

All it takes is for Beth to give the option to turn it off. As long as (or as soon as) that is confirmed, wouldn't it make these types of conversations superfluous? Not to mention the fact that in OB As soon as I stepped out of the beginning dungeon, I simply never selected a quest so I had no quest markers.

» Tue May 03, 2011 5:24 am

I was reading through this article, and I found something concerning the navigation bar.

It reads: "The navigation bar returns, with illustrated points of interest highlighted in specific directions. And that’s not the only thing that has returned."

Does this mean the objective marker has returned??!!

Link: http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/3048710

Helll, no.
Such markers are the RPG equivalent of mom spoonfeeding you pureéd rabbit livers. It's rated M for a reason, for heaven's sake.
The other accusations of dumbing down Skyrim seem ungrounded. On the other hand, quest markers are what I'd want after my first lobotomy.

» Mon May 02, 2011 7:19 pm

The compass in Oblivion compared to following directions in MW took a step back in my opinion, but if you're on consoles and that's the way the game is, svck it up. If you're on PC just mod it out, or wait for someone else to. You can't hold it against Beth if they want to focus on cool things like dragon fights instead of hours of dialogue spelling out where a location is they could easily just scribble on to your map with a red marker on it. Yes MW had a cool system of "go here and here then take a left" directions, but sometimes with so many of those directions we get the occasional case where the directions were wrong, or they are so obscure we end up googling where we're supposed to go.

If you're that upset about a marker telling you where to go, just roleplay that your character is good at remembering directions and that the quest giver slipped you a note telling you where to go lol.. don't get all crazy about it.

» Tue May 03, 2011 1:46 am

don't get all crazy about it.

People aren't. The people in this thread arguing for a Morrowind like system, or a hybrid system align with what you're saying for the most part. It's not unreasonable to want this and argue for it, svck it up.

» Mon May 02, 2011 9:06 pm

People aren't. The people in this thread arguing for a Morrowind like system, or a hybrid system align with what you're saying for the most part. It's not unreasonable to want this and argue for it, svck it up.

Our opinions on getting crazy about it are probably just different then. Talking about spoon feeding baby food and sugar addled 12 year olds is kind of a crazy talk when you're talking about a map marker.

I liked MW's way of directions better than OB's. If they go with something more like OB's, get over it and hope that if enough people agree that it should be like MW they will implement that in the next TES. Don't insult people (including the people who make the game for you and put in map markers) by calling them sugar addled 12 year olds or any kind of nonsense like that.