Each individual response is an entry. If they both modify the same response, they conflict, but if they are modifying two different responses to the same topic (or adding responses to the same topic), then the rule of one does not come into play.

However, you may still have a problem where greeting A and greeting B are supposed to happen under the same circumstances, so that you only see one and never see the other. I don't think there is any simple fix for that - you would have to merge the mods and mess with the dialogue settings to get them to both play some of the time, or something.

Also, bg2408, there is another thing modders can do to reduce incompatibility, if they like, though it's pretty difficult and requires OBSE if they're dealing with leveled lists - use scripts to place items. For example, I could have a script add a weapon to a vendor's chest with little difficulty, and this will not conflict with any mod that adds something to that chest. Obviously, this is not nearly so simple as putting the item there myself. And you can add items/NPCs/creatures to leveled lists in the same way, using OBSE, preventing conflicts.

Obviously, though, for this much work in most cases it is probably preferable to just tell users to use a Bashed Patch.

I only bring it up because a fairly significant Morrowind modder named Chris Woods always did this, and it did mean he could claim, without hesitation, that his mod would never conflict - at least in terms of overwriting - with another mod, which some may like to do as well. I'm using this kind of system for my own mod, though the mod I have designed has little choice in the matter.

I got another question. Something about the one rule and cells. I know that multiple mods can add stuff to a cell and it'll all show up ingame but isn't it true only one mod can alter/contain info on certain flags on the cell? I'm asking this because a while ago I tried out Natural Interiors and it had to load after mods such as OOO else it wouldn't work. Cause NI requires setting a flag on the cell to true or something. So although the items NI added to cells were loaded, this flag was not. (because if OOO was after NI, the game would read the cell's flags from OOO and not NI) thus it stopped working.

Is this line of thinking correct or is it completely wrong?

I think every mod that somehow alters interior cell, either by adding or removing items, contains also all those flags and other cell settings. Because there can be only one instance of every setting, it means that last loaded mod wins. I noticed that when i solved mod conflicts with Darker Dungeons.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=792895. At a glance Landheight can only be modified by one mod. To backup Aoshima Michio - that's certainly what it looks like in TES4Edit and the Details screen in the CS.

Introduction

There are many threads out there requesting people to look through load orders, and some of them are experiencing problems (graphical errors, CTDs, etc) while many are just looking for reassurance that their load order is "good". This is time consuming, both for the poster, who must wait for someone to read his entire thread, and the helper, who must assess the load order and decide if there are any "fatal" errors. This is a brief guide designed to help simplify the process of troubleshooting your own load order, and how better to expedite the process of getting help from others if you find you can not.

This is not a FAQ with all the answers to every load order problem; that would be impossible to do in any one thread as everyone has a different machine and different mods. I will explain the use of OBMM and Wrye Bash for obtaining a current load order, as well as the best way to post it in your thread. I will also list available resources to help you on your way to finding your own sweet spot on the load order. Always, of course community feedback and corrections are welcome, as I am no "Load Order Expert" and nor am I a great Modder.

Q1: What exactly is load order?

A1: Load order is exactly what it says it is: the order in which Oblivion loads your particular plugins. It is determined by the date the plugin was created/last edited.

Q2: That's great, but what does that really matter? I can just add plugins and make sure they're checked in the Data Files to play right?

A2: Yes, actually you can with a very few mods, and still certain ones will need adjustment. When two plugins that modify the same thing are loaded, the one that loads last is the one whose changes will actually take effect. The other plugin will retain its edits on any other reference in game except the ones that are overwritten by later plugins.

Q3: So. How do I edit my load order then?

A3: Well, for starters, you need http://wrye.ufrealms.net/ or http://timeslip.chorrol.com/obmm_download.html (henceforth known as OBMM). Both of these tools will help you to set the proper load order. I will not go into in depth instruction on these tools beyond how to use them to display load order, and that is later.

Resources

There are several documents online for you to look at when determining a load order. These shouldn't be followed as concrete and "correct", but rather used as a guideline. Remember, they have a different set up than you do and something that works perfectly for them may cause you some problems. But these load lists are a great place to start. The pertinent documentation is as follows:

1: No link for this one. The README of the mod is the first place you should look for load order information, as some mods have special load order. You may want to check this resource after the others to keep you from putting a mod in the wrong place by blindly following another guide.

2: dev_akm's http://devnull.devakm.googlepages.com/loadorder is another place to look. This lists general categories of mods with some basic examples of what constitutes each type of mod. This is great for starters and generally a good guide.

3: Agiel's http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pb7X4kMdvelbqrwmeFgmsEA&gid=0. This guide is very specific, it is actually Agiel's load order that he has tweaked to perfection (for him) and a very good place to get some detailed information. The list contains several popular mods and is color coded for ease of deciphering. It gives a brief description of many mods too, so even if your mod isn't on the list, you may find one that is similar in concept or execution that could make placing some of those more obscure mods easy.

4: dev_akm's http://devnull.devakm.googlepages.com/fcomloadorder. You only need this if you have FCOM. This load order details how FCOM is placed into your load order (or since it's so big, how your load order fits around it). Even though this is linked from the FCOM readme page, I thought I'd post it here since it is so big, and isn't covered by any of the previous load order lists.

5: Mod Readme: Remember what I said earlier? Check these again to make sure you haven't sloughed some mod off into the wrong spot because a guide said that those type mods go there. Again, these are rarely wrong and have a good reason for it.

Tools

Ok you have set your load order, and now you want to play. But when you do, things aren't working out quite right. You start getting "Crash To Desktop"s (or CTD)! Now what? Let's run to the forums and ask for help!!!

Whoa whoa whoa there. Slow down a second. Let's think this through a little better, and see if we can solve this problem ourselves. Really, though, let's look at some tools that will help us find these conflicts.

1: http://wrye.ufrealms.net/. Yeah, I listed it earlier. No, I'm still not going to tell you how to use it. Wrye's readme covers that quite well. You will want this tool.
2: http://timeslip.chorrol.com/obmm_download.html. Yup. I listed this one before too. Get it. it has a conflict detector, but really the functions you want from this are the ability to see your load order and easily reorder your mods.
3: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11536. This tool will let you see conflicts between mods and possibly make changes needed if you're capable. It also will give you a read out you can post on the forums for help. You really don't need to use this until you know you have a conflict (ie graphical discrepancies, CTDs, or NPCs behaving oddly to name a few).

Now that we have the tools to see the conflicts and change our load order, let's see if moving a mod up or down on the list causes some of those conflicts to become nonfatal. There is a good guide about conflicts and compatibility of mods http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=775917(but if you're reading this, you likely know that). It may take some extensive tweaking and play testing to get it perfect, but nothing worth having is easy to get. Well, we've tinkered with our load list a bit, and now the CTDs are a little more frequent than before. Thanks Paladin, your advice has made my game even worse!!

Well that leads us to our next topic:

The Forums

Every now and again, we encounter a problem we can't solve or have overlooked the answer to. Thankfully, there's a community here willing to help you get past these issues. Posting on the forum may seem simple, but read these few tips before clicking that "New Topic" button.

First, we need to know what the problem is, and make sure that our topic title reflects that in a concise and accurate manner. Threads titled "HALP!!!!1" or "Can't fix it" aren't helpful and will lead to people over looking your topic rather than reading it and trying to help you.

Next, we need a description of our problem, like "I keep getting CTDs every time I try to load a game", or "My game crashes instantly whenever someone hits me with a spell". These descriptions are simple, but to the point. If there is any more information, you should include it here, much like "The crashes don't occur when others are hit by the spells, only me" or "The oblivion gates aren't closing properly either." Believe it or not, two seemingly unrelated problems can be caused by the same mod being out of place.

Now we want to post our full load order. First, we want to open a codebox. You can click on "Insert Special Item" and select it from the pull down menu, like http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/paladin181/forum1.png or simply type codebox in the [ ]tags.

NOTE: You only need to use ONE of the following Methods!

1:Here's how to get your load order in Wrye Bash. Open Wrye Bash, then Right click at the organizer tabs (File, Load Order) Let's right click on file, and on the pull down menu, let's click on List Mods. It will look like http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/paladin181/WB1.png. A window will pop up, and your load list will automatically be copied to your clipboard.

2:To do the same thing in OBMM, we'll open OBMM and click Import/Export like http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/paladin181/OBMM1.png and select View Load Order like http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/paladin181/OBMM2.png. A window will pop up. Hold ctrl and hit A, then hit C (without releasing ctrl) you may now release ctrl. You now have copied your load order to your clipboard.

In your post, place your cursor between the codebox tags (if you inserted them instead of typing it) and hold ctrl, and press V. You have now pasted your load order in the codebox. The result will look like this:

Oblivion.esmFrancesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esmFrancesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esmAWS-Core.esmOscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esmMart's Monster Mod.esmTamrielTravellers.esmFCOM_Convergence.esmHorseCombatMaster.esmHrmnsOblivionScriptOptimizationv1.0.espUnofficial Oblivion Patch.espFrancesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.espFrancesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.espFrancesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.espFrancesco's Optional Leveled Guards.espFCOM_Francescos.espDLCShiveringIsles.espUnofficial Shivering Isles Patch MOBS.espDLCThievesDen.espDecoratorAssistant with OBSE v1.1.espDLCOrrery.espDLCFrostcrag.espDLCVileLair.espDLCMehrunesRazor.espDLCSpellTomes.espDLCHorseArmor.espDLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.espDLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.espDLCFrostcrag - Unofficial Patch.espDLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.espDLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.espDLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.espDLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.espSymphony of Violence.espAWS-ShiveringIsles.espNatural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.espBetterImperfectWater.espNo psychic guards v1.2.espMaleBodyReplacerV3.espP1DkeyChain.espSkip Tutorial.espIWR - Windows Lights Shutters - Optimised.espBob's Armory Oblivion.espFCOM_BobsArmory.espOblivion WarCry EV.espFCOM_WarCry.espOscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.espMart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.espFCOM_Convergence.espFCOM_SpawnRatesReduced.espFCOM_SaferRoads.espMart's Monster Mod - Less Bone Loot.espMart's Monster Mod - No Undead Rise.espMart's Monster Mod - Fran's leveled quests.espTamrielTravellers4000.espFCOM_TamrielTravelers.espFCOM_MoreRandomItems.espFCOM_FriendlierFactions.espFCOM_Archery.espKnights.espKnights - Unofficial Patch.espLost Paladins of the Divines.espmythsandlegends.espGhogiels Armor.espBlack Guard.esppale_rider's Paladin Equipment_unenchanted_eng.espChoices and Consequences.espFCOM_UOP.espFCOM_Knights.espFrancesco's 10 days respawn time - 1-20 day lenght rescale.espOOO-Level_Normal.espOOOHangoverRemedy.espFCOM_Vampires.espMart's Monster Mod - Vindasel.espCSR - Fine Iron.espspMerchant.espHair and Eyes.espDarkUI Fix.espDarNified Books.espJump Adjustment-TESSource.espToaster's Legendary Mastery.espToaster's Legendary Skills & Stats.espSupremeMagicka.espSM_NoSpellLights.espSM_EnchantStaff.espSM_DLCSpellTome.espSM_ShiveringIsles.espSM_MOBSCompatability.espSM_OOO.espSM_MMMCompatability.espnGCD.espbgMagicEV.espbgBalancingEVCore.espbgBalancingEVOhmesRobertsBodyModFix.espbgBalancingOptionalUpdateVanillaCharacter.espStreamline 3.1.espBashed Patch, 0.espDeadlyReflex - Combat Moves.esp

Now we put any other pertinent information, such as posting the read out from TES4View (also in a codebox, as above) or any other error messages you may have received. It may also help to post your computer specs. If you don't know them, it isn't often important in load order problems anyway. But if you find it necessary to post it, there are guides on the net about how to obtain your system specifications.

Conclusion

This concludes my "tutorial." Hopefully, you'll be able to find problems in your load order yourself, and if you are still stuck, you now know how to post a help thread here to get answers to your problems. If you have any comments or suggestions, I'd be happy to read them. Gratuitous monetary donations can be sent to my Swiss account.

Actually, you can skip crtrl-A and ctrl-C. Bash automatically copies the list to your clipboard as soon as it's displayed. (Since the primary reason for viewing the list is copy and paste it somewhere else.)

Thanks Wrye, Fixed it.

I know I'm not exactly objective... but TES4View would be the best tool to find and understand mod conflicts and resolve them by tweaking to load order, adding Bash Tags (once you understand what the actual source of the conflict is) or (using TES4Edit) creating a compatibility esp which merges the conflicting changes.

Maybe that could be mentioned in the first post...

Seconded.

Wrye Bash Wiki
The Wrye Bash Wiki provides "How Tos" and answers FAQs. It's designed to be quite a bit more approachable for first time and/or less experienced users than the regular http://wrye.ufrealms.net/Wrye%20Bash.html.

Main sections are:
* http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Wrye_Bash/Installation: Vista problems, etc.
* http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Wrye_Bash/Basic
* http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Wrye_Bash/Bashed_Patch: Leveled lists, Race merging, etc.
* http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Wrye_Bash/Advanced

Note that as a wiki, anyone can add info/edit the wiki. But also as a wiki, contributors are expected to be knowledgeable, follow existing formats, etc. -- and be prepared to have their entries edited mercilessly.

Hokay, I'm not a true modder. Made a few for personal use in Morrowind and in Oblivion. Simple, no-brainer ones and that is it. I'm a user/player and am constantly amazed by what you guys do.

I'm not a big laugher, mostly a smile or maybe a chuckle but this thread has me ROTFLMAO. For years I have been amazed at how players can post comments such as "This is a lousy game/mod. I hate it." No constructive criticism. Just the game/mod svcks because the poster doesn't like it. I'm including games as well as mods. Just because a developer gets paid doesn't mean he or she isn't hurt when people rant about their game. I first played Oblivion on my old PC and it became the game I loved to hate. With my new PC and a lot more experience with the 3D graphics it is a whole new game.

When it comes to mods I find the ranting even more distasteful and just plain dumb. Modders are sharing their ideas, desires with us for free. I have only recently been adding mods to Oblivion except for M.O.E. which I used primarily to delay the MQ and found some of the other parts enhanced the game playing. I currently have 40 active mods plus five or six that I may or may not activate in my current game. I also have OMOD, OBSE and Wrye Bash and am interested in a few others.

There is a point to this rambling post. Courtesy on the Internet is even more important than in real life. If I am face to face with someone and make a remark that upsets her then she has a chance to call me on it and we can iron out the problem or agree to disagree right then. On the Internet it seems much too easy to just fall into a flaming war without really trying to understand the other person's view point.

There are no perfect games or mods and never will be simply because the perfect game for me will not be the perfect game for JaneDoe. I'm a BaK fan (Betrayal at Krondor). It was my first cRPG and will always hold a special place in my heart. I love role playing and building cities. I love puzzles and strategy. Slash and Bash is fine but not if that is all there is in the game. Never played Diablo and never will. Does that make Diablo a bad game? No! Just not my kind of game.

Since I'm writing a book here I would like to mention the rating system on tesnexus. Rate this mod on a scale of 1 to 10 with a justification of a very low or high rating. The average rating ends up being something like 8.6. Why? One because people such as myself don't rate a mod they don't like and I don't think they should. Because I like or dislike a mod doesn't make it good or bad. However, suppose I love Mod XYZ and someone gives it a 4 or lower rating my reaction is to give it a 10 to offset what I believe to be an unfair rating. Maybe I would have given it a 9 or a 9.5 otherwise. I am aware of others who have done the same thing.

Bugs slip into the best game or mod. Sometimes these little moths actually are not the fault of the game or mod. I had a game that caused all kinds of problems. So I went through the read-me very carefully. Lo and behold the problem was my printer driver. The developers knew about it and put it in the read-me. Solution was to disable the printer driver when I played the game. I play Oblivion with a clean boot which helps a great deal. Conflicts arise and choices need to be made. These are personal choices and have nothing to do with whether a mod is great or lousy.

My thanks to all you modders for the work you do. I am awed by what you accomplish and hope you will continue to add to my pleasure and fun. Keep up the good work and maybe Oblivion will be around as long as Baldurs Gate has been.

Absolutely brilliant. I wholeheartedly agree.

There's no way in hell I could write something as deep and thoughtful as what Nakia just wrote, but I just want to express my gratitude for the endless, anonymous hours of work that you put into making something big or small for us. And even when you get such random, utter [censored], you roll with it and keep giving us more.

Just a thanks to anybody and everybody who has at any time devoted time to this community for such selfless purposes.

If you take away a body replacer and all the mdos you have for it and add back another body replacer plus even more stuff and then a new start mod could missing meshes problems occur.

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions . I've updated the text - explaining a bit about Wrye Bash and tes4edit, also "merged" http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=817263&hl= into it as a second part for mod makers.

I never thought this little text could become so popular .

What about modded lighting in a cell? I've heard there's a 'bug' in the CS, which means that if you use a mod that changes the lighting in a cell (like the one that makes light more realistic by only making real light sources emit light), but also use a mod that adds a new item to that cell, the lighting will be reset to the original?

I was using that mod, and my own mod added an item to a cell and suddenly the lighting was different... I think.

compatibility problems...yes, they are.

but from another point of view (don't misunderstand, i really DO appreciate every modders and their work since i don't have the modding skills neither the time to learn them, usually even don't have the time to play...):

so i think sometimes modders overdo modding. i mean they start to realize a smart and useful, "needed from long time" mod idea, then - fortunately - they improve their mods. ok, but usually they put another, and another, and another, sometimes strange features in their mods that don't fit to the original idea of the mod, so what was useful before, causes problem and incompatibilities later with good working mods.

keep it simple!!!

TES4view Period. When stepping into the mod cave, why carry a torch when you can use nighteye?

Hi!
I'm using the following load order, but the game just keeps crashing on me all the time. So i thought that maybe you guys could help me with these crashed. Maybe you could copy my list and then place the mods in a good order? Thank you! //Mute

Sorry wrong forrum

I'm currently trying to eliminate conflicts in my load order and was curious: how conflict-free is everyone else?

Is being totally conflict-free even feasible with, say, 20 to 30 mods? (assuming the standard ones: offical mods, OOO, MMM, a handful of textures and quests)

The entire ESP system is based on conflicts. An ESP is something that conflicts with an ESM. So no, it's impossible to have a conflict free game. However, you can eliminate unwanted conflicts by tweaking your load order.

Thanks for the reply.

After a long absence of playing the game vanilla (when it first came out), I've reinstalled it on my new PC and started modding the heck out of it. With everything that's out there now, it's been a little overwhelming. There are so many mods, plug-ins, etc available for it. I tried to take it slow at first but would like to get the best and most popular mods installed and running before I get too far into a new character.

My load order seems to work. By that, I mean the game runs and the mods seem to be in effect (as best as I can tell). Obviously the textures are easy to spot right off the bat but I'm trying to verify the more subtle ones (i.e. gameplay adjustment from OOO for example). The utility in OMM shows alot of conflicts but from what I've read today I will probably need to install and run TES4View and Wrye Bash tonight when I get home. I just didn't want to spend hours and hours trying to eliminate conflicts unnecessarily. The ESP system is greek to me. :confused:

Thanks again.

esp file system is the equivalent of Oblivion mods. The way I meant it could have been read "The way Oblivion loads/works with mods is founded on conflicts"

Hey, I'm having a problem with OOO and another mod called Physical Throwable CratesN' Chests... When the two are working together they bash heads and don't work right. OOO alters containers in a way I guess, and that is confliciting with this mod, because this mod alters containers as well, so that you can move em around. It would be very helpful if anyone who has had such a problem before and found a solution to it, could tell me how to find the solution, or if anyone could help me fix it.

I have spent quite some time going through tutorials and mod lists etc. and there are a few topics that I have failed to clearly understand and It is slowing down my plan of attack for installing mods.

If you use a tool like OBMM and install a mod like QTP3 - Redimized and then procede to install a mod like Improved Chorrol. The way I understand it is that textures from IC will overwrite various textures from QTP3. If I Deactivate and uninstall the Improved Chorrol OMOD, will the textures that it replaced from QTP3 return or will i have to deactivate and reactivate QTP3 to get them back? Essentially, If I like certain mods that replace vanilla textures, and then want to try another mod that replaces some of those same textures; I want to know if I end up not really liking the textures from the mod I am trying, will deactivating the OMOD give me the textures that came before it that are still active in OBMM?

On a related note; Using either Wrye or OBMM - If both mod A and mod B install replacers that replace the same vanilla objects; will simply switching their load order decide who's replacers are used? Or do the replacers from mod B "replace" the replacers from mod A, and now switching load order makes mod A now use mod B's replacers?

One a side note: Will any textures that replace the same vanilla textures as QTP3 - Redimized not look right because of the adjustments made in the Redimized project?
Also, can anyone tell me if Better cities includes textures that replace Vanilla ones?