Thank you! And all of you.

Just wanted to say that this thread has been very informative. You guys have discovered all kinds of game info from trying to "push the envelope", as it were... "weapon spec perks kinda svck" is just the latest in a long list of things you guys have unearthed through testing and mature debate. I for one would like to see how this thread continues to evolve...

What if the weapons are enchanted? What if you have Fortify One-Handed equipment on? I think these will change things more in favor of swords, perhaps enough to tip the balance even without use of looping. I agree that at 100 One-Handed, 100 Smithing, 5 ranks of Armsman, and 3 ranks of Hack and Slash/Bladesman, and nothing else, axes will win.

More edit: Though I guess by the point swords are superior the difference is largely academic since you will be one-hitting most things in the game.

I'm still playing with numbers right now, but With Dual Savagery, dual wielding Daedric Maces (567) I just one shot Alduin on normal difficulty.

Anyhow, could some1 give me the fully smithed sword and axe stats and the perk stats? I could get an equation more finilazed(as no offence buut many of the other equations are wrong like with the mace/swoard argument)

Hi, great info on this thread.

If anyone is interested in making a similar thread but without the use of any skill modifying potions or enchants other than what is available from unique artifacts I'd personally find it really useful...

[7] Alchemist 5/5, Physician, Benefactor
[7] Novice Destruction, Augmented Frost 2/2, Augmented Flames 2/2, Augmented Shock 2/2
[11] Enchanter 5/5, Inidghtful Enchanter, Corpus enchanter, Extra Effect, fire Enchanter, Storm Enchanter, Frost Enchanter
[5] Steel Smithing, Dwarven Smithing, Orcish Smithing, Ebony Smithing, Daedric Smithing
[10] Armsman 5/5, Dual flurry 2/2, Dual savagery, Fighting Stance, Savage Strike
4 x 47% One-Handed enchantments
Daedric Mace (567) 81 Frost Damage, 81 Shock damage
Daedric Mace (567) 15 fire damage, absorb 34 health
130% one handed damage potion

Damage output of a standing power attack = Over 3370 on Master difficulty

One shot alduin. Guess we can't test max damage

Edit: Worked out some numbers;

Alduins health during the three hit power attack

3370
1482.82 (1887.18)
Dead
Dead

Then I swapped the weapons;

3370
1535.00 (1835)
Dead
Dead

So I would have done 1887.18 * 2 + 1835 = 5609.37 damage, on master. So 11218.72 on normal.

If I got rid of the absorb/health drain mace, I'd do 1887.18 * 3 = 5661.54 on master, 11323.08 on normal

A one handed power attack with the dual elemental mace did 2525.26 damage on master

Not bad for 40 perks

setav health 10000? Hahaha.

I re-tested the hidden armor rating; it appears the chest piece has the same effect as the rest.

I did some math, and axes aren't even close, normal attacks on non elemental gear. Swords do 109.35 more per second not counting bleed damage which maximizes at 30 in a second.

How does that work? Daedric War Axe is 558 + 18 bleed, Sword is 550 + 10.5 on a crit.

I beg your pardon if this point has been raised already, but isn't this all rather murky moral ground? Endless loops of item enhancements, weapons that can one shot dragons, might as well be using the kill command in the console. I would stress that while the techniques mentioned in this thread can come in useful at times, they should be taken in moderation, under no circumstances should stats be increased to the point that there remains no challenge in the game. Change what you wish while remaining true to the core principles of Skyrim.

That being said, highly informative thread, as a dagger user myself however i note there seems to be little info on that regard, despite stating that they do not benefit from 1-handed weapon benefits, exactly what does this mean? do no perks in the 1-handed tree benefit daggers? also, is there any way to approximate the 2x bonus from dark brotherhood armor without joining the dark brotherhood?

I had(from earlier) 518 for sword and 527 for axe, new number gives us:
102.5(bladesman)times 550 times 1.0 for speed(563.75) vs 527 times 0.8 weapon speed is 421.6 plus bleed. New numbers make it worse without bleed in account 142.15 in favor of swords(bleed maxes at 30 per sec).

Deadric Mace with 4 x 47% enchants and 5/5 armsman perks upgraded with 4x29% smithing enchants and 130% smithing potions gives you a 567 damage mace. A dagger with the same stuff only gives 182 because the enchants don't effect it. Then you add a power attack and the mace hits 1134 compared to the daggers 364. A one handed backstab power attack with a mace should do x6 for 6804 while a dagger should do x15 for 5460. When discussing absolute max damage a dagger isn't even worth discussing in comparison.

As far as I know the double backstab is unique to DBH gear and the Jester/Cicero gear from their quest line.

Are you getting the same results as my numbers domilasa, cause mine show quite a win for swords.

I haven't looked at attack speeds, I don't even know what they are to be honest, I leave those calculations to Cheshyr. I have just been focusing on the straight damage up to this point.
Are the numbers for them written down anywhere?

Its based on http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:One-handed.

Are the calculations taking into account having Dual Flurry for 35% faster attacks? I'd think the slower a weapon the higher its DPS gain from having the perk.

True, I use one hand so I did it for that, while that is true I don't think it will make up for it since sword will gain more from dual savagery and savage strike for power attacks which I also didn't take into account.

Good point. Even a small lead would pull away with a 75% boost from those perks. So really it all comes down to how insanely overpowered you'll be playing your character. If you'll be using fairly low damage weapons and expect to be getting multiple hits against your foe, go with swords for attack speed. If you just want to play in god mode and expect to one-two shot everything go with maces for pure brute power.

Edit; Noticed an error in your previous post. You're calculating axes at 0.8, they're 0.9. Wrong damage as well 527 instead of 558

558 * .9 = 502.2 + 18 = 520.2
550 * 1 =550 + 10.5 = 560.5

So with that swords beat axes beat maces. Next is dual wield vs shield vs healing.
Edit: true ill get new numbers in a sec
Axes are 502.2 where sword is still 563.75
A 61.55 difference without bleed which maxes at 30 so swords still win.

Dual wield beats everything imo. Losing half your damage when you have 80% damage reduction and an absorb health enchant is pointless. Especially when half your damage is 5k

Axes are 502.2 where sword is still 563.75 A 61.55 difference without bleed which maxes at 30 in a second so swords still win.
On the dual wield vs shield vs healing: remeber that grand healing is 300 health and stamina per sec, I think we do enough dps but could use survivability.

Once you start getting into that sort of debate then it just comes down to individuals and their playstyle. With an 80% reduction to all incoming damage along with absorb health on your weapon and the ability to craft highly boosted health pots while the game is paused I don't think survivability will ever be an issue, certainly not something worth gimping your damage output so much for. The quicker things die the less damage you take.

Dual attack speed is based on the weapon in your left hand; if you're going that route, given how bad the specific weapon perks are, it's probably best to have a mace in your right hand and a sword in your left (unless you're not using Fortify One-Handed, the faster speed of daggers probably isn't enough to offset the lower damage... perhaps unless the power attack only uses the right hand to determine damage).

Do you think the Restoration loop will survive patching? What does the loop mean for the importance of perks in Alchemy, Enchanting and Smithing?