Complete Character Design Freedom (Damage Resist Caps and Ri : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:12 am

If you're going to abuse the restoration loop exploit then you don't need any perks, just lots of ingredients and patience. Everything we use in this thread is non-explotative, just lots of number crunching.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:22 pm

Number crunching is more interesting.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:30 pm

Now, if our definition of best is the most efficient use of perks... things get hairy. At what point do we say we're doing 'enough damage'? Once we know that, we can do what we did with armor: find the least number of perks to achieve that damage level, and thereby define 'best weapon type' for us.

This is what I'm most interested in at this point. I think it's safe to say that one-shotting Alduin is too much. My hope is that by dropping Alchemy completely and playing on Master, I'll save some perks, avoid an obnoxious Skill grind, and keep my damage from trivializing the game.

I don't have that concern about mitigation, by the way. The armor and magic resistance caps exist for a reason; reaching them seems like a reasonable goal for any player late-game assuming they're so inclined. But if you're killing Alduin in one shot, we've probably wandered beyond the pale.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:41 pm

I beg your pardon if this point has been raised already, but isn't this all rather murky moral ground? Endless loops of item enhancements, weapons that can one shot dragons, might as well be using the kill command in the console. I would stress that while the techniques mentioned in this thread can come in useful at times, they should be taken in moderation, under no circumstances should stats be increased to the point that there remains no challenge in the game. Change what you wish while remaining true to the core principles of Skyrim.

This has been brought up repeatedly and obsessively, and for the most part I find the question meaningless and moderately offensive. There is no moral ground when discussing game mechanics. We are exploring the possibilities of how to enjoy the entertainment you purchased. Use what you want, to the degree that you want, and walk away from the rest. No harm done to anyone.

That being said, highly informative thread, as a dagger user myself however i note there seems to be little info on that regard, despite stating that they do not benefit from 1-handed weapon benefits, exactly what does this mean? do no perks in the 1-handed tree benefit daggers? also, is there any way to approximate the 2x bonus from dark brotherhood armor without joining the dark brotherhood?

I'm not sure what information you are requesting. I still need to get post 4 updated with Damage numbers, so that might answer your question once I get around to it. The short version with daggers is, you can improve them to a certain point, but One-haded Skill Enchants don't apply to them. Some One-Handed perks do apply to them, although the math seems inconsistent at times. The extra damage from DB gear was only on Sneak Attack, I thought, in which case it should be a straight up scalar... although, given how weird the math has gotten lately, that's an assumption and not based on empirical evidence.

Do you think the Restoration loop will survive patching? What does the loop mean for the importance of perks in Alchemy, Enchanting and Smithing?

If you're going to abuse the restoration loop exploit then you don't need any perks, just lots of ingredients and patience. Everything we use in this thread is non-explotative, just lots of number crunching.

I don't know if the Resto loop will survive or not. If it doesn't, there are still other ways to accentuate your character power to your desired levels. The resto loop is just an extreme example. The key difference for us is that the Alchemy/Enchanting/Smithing synergy is not unlimited, and doesn't appear to be based on a glitch or bug. For some people, this matters. This thread, however, is not meant to be judgemental on how you go about making the game fun for yourself, so the Resto Loop doesn't really have any impact on the other paths to power. Use whichever you prefer.

This is what I'm most interested in at this point. I think it's safe to say that one-shotting Alduin is too much. My hope is that by dropping Alchemy completely and playing on Master, I'll save some perks, avoid an obnoxious Skill grind, and keep my damage from trivializing the game.

I don't have that concern about mitigation, by the way. The armor and magic resistance caps exist for a reason; reaching them seems like a reasonable goal for any player late-game assuming they're so inclined. But if you're killing Alduin in one shot, we've probably wandered beyond the pale.

Dual attack speed is based on the weapon in your left hand; if you're going that route, given how bad the specific weapon perks are, it's probably best to have a mace in your right hand and a sword in your left (unless you're not using Fortify One-Handed, the faster speed of daggers probably isn't enough to offset the lower damage... perhaps unless the power attack only uses the right hand to determine damage).

Looking through the discussion, I've noticed a few assumptions we need to solidify:

UESP Weapon Speed Numbers are correct (0.8, 0.9. 1.0, 1.2)?
Weapon Speed is consistently scalar for normal attacks, while dual wielding, and for power attacks?
Power Attack damage is based on literal weapon damage in each hand, and not a calculation from one of the weapons?
Our weapon damage models, while accurate, have been a bit naive, and may need to be extended as well.

After this, we should start our discussion on our desired upper limit for weapon damage. This will be a highly subjective discussion, so let's back up our arguments with numbers.

To assist with this, I've been collecting data on various creatures in the game, using a console script. It's just a text file, and it's nothing fancy, but it's been getting the job done.

Right click, and Download http://www.diffpair.com/misc/getStats.txt
Place in Skyrim executable folder
From within game, hit '~'
Use mouse to select your target
type 'bat getStats'
Use PageUp and PageDown to scroll through the data
Take notes, consolidate data, and use it to make an argument for a desired upper limit on weapon damage

For those concerned about the contents of the script:

getAV HealthgetAV MagickagetAV StaminagetAV DamageResistgetAV FireResistgetAV ElectricResistgetAV FrostResistgetAV MagicResistgetAV UnarmedDamage

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:00 am

I'm playing on console so can't help with your statchecking, however I just got tbe ebony mail it seems that its effect is much like bleed but with poison and for 10 secs, discuss?

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:14 pm

Unfortunately, I was the one who put the weapon speeds into UESP so there's no independent confirmation here.

On attack speeds: A brief test seems to show power attacks executing at a slower rate than normal attacks, though I don't have numbers. (Perhaps the most effective method of testing would be setav stamina and use stamina regen as a timer.) There's also a sort of a trick you can do if you double-click and hold--your character will execute a normal attack and a power attack with very little delay between the two (much less than two normal attacks in a row)--it's as if the power attack interrupts the "recovery" stage of the normal attack animation.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Ok,

Did some DW testing:

some numbers

sword: 15mace: 18dagger: 12dual mace: 0.8(18+18) = 28.8dual sword: 1.0(15+15) = 30.0dual dagger: 1.2(12+12) = 28.8 #(Broken, in reality it's slower)mace + sword: 1.0(18+15) = 33.0mace + dagger: 1.2(18+12) = 36.0sword + dagger: 1.0(15+12) = 32.4

As we can see you should never use mace as an off-hand weapon, it slows you down too much compared to sword or dagger. Dagger is superior off-hand weapon if its damage is atleast 67% of what sword could provide, but problem is that even with single +47% 1h enchant off-hand sword does slightly more damage.
Until you start enchanting your gear with +40% or more 1h damage, dagger is best off-hand weapon but after that you should change to sword.

Dual daggers use alternate powerattack animation which makes them slowest option.

Extra note: Blade of woe is a strange thing, considered dagger but attack speed of a sword.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:04 pm

To the guys doing the number testing (Domilasa, Zergs, etc.):

What game version are you guys running? Just curious.

-Loth

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:39 am

Numbers have been consistent across multiple game versions as far as I can tell. Started with 1.1, dabbled a bit with 1.2 but reverted back because of the broken resists, now using 1.3

As for the damage cap, dual wielding power attack hitting only 3370 is good for me

Edit: Character design;

1/5 Juggernaut, 1/1 Well Fitted
5/5 Amrsman, 1/2 Dual Flurry, Dual Savagery
Steel Smithing
Enchanter 5/5, Insightful Enchanter, Copus Enchanter, Extra Effect
Alchemist 5/5, Physician, Benefactor
4 x 29% alchemy enchants
32% enchanting potion
4 x 29% smithing enchants, 130% smithing potion
4 x 47% One-handed enchants
NO ancient knowledge perk
Steel Armor
Nord Hero Waraxe (Frost Damage, Shock Damage)
Nord Hero Waraxe (Absorb Health, Absorb Stamina)

Perks used: 25
Damage dealt against Alduin on normal difficulty with a dual wield power attack: 3536.06

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:09 pm

Anyone know how effective paralyze on weapons are at 100 alteration with stability? How often do they resist?

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:38 pm

Enchanter 5/5, Insightful Enchanter
Nord Hero Waraxe (Frost Damage, Shock Damage)
Nord Hero Waraxe (Absorb Health, Absorb Stamina)

Perks used: 23

I'd bump that up to 25 to add Corpus Enchanter and Extra Effect, unless you've got some other way of getting 2 enchants onto each of those weapons.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:12 am

Anyone know how effective paralyze on weapons are at 100 alteration with stability? How often do they resist?

My incredibly quick and in no way reliable test of hitting a couple of bandits about 40 times gives me the impression that it's about a 30% chance. Take it with a grain of salt

I'd bump that up to 25 to add Corpus Enchanter and Extra Effect, unless you've got some other way of getting 2 enchants onto each of those weapons.

Ooops, missed that. I originally did it with Elven maces and no enchants but figured I'd save a perk by using steel, totally forgot I added two for the enchants meaning a net loss of one perk.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:26 pm

So we've got one vote for optimizing to a non-stealthed power-attack doing 3370 damage against an unarmored foe on normal. If nobody else expresses an opinion in the next day or two, we'll run with that.

While I'm asking for opinions... How do you guys feel about Master difficulty? I've rolled a new toon that's on some pretty strict rules... Pure Mage for perks, although all skills are allowed to be used. Can only use ore, leather, ingredients and souls / soulgems that I have looted / collected myself. No compass, no quest markers, map only in major towns, no fast travel except carriage... And Master difficulty. Suddenly horses and companions make sense, and I'm tempted to buy houses in every town. Travel is scary, and I breath a sigh of relief when I successfully hide from a dragon. I use the Calm Ajimal shout frequently.

Most of the game is the same; I just have to be more thoughtful and patient. The exception is certain bosses. How do I up from novice and apprentice opponents to an ascendant boss? Are the a fixed level? I can't put a dent in them, and had to leave and plan a trip for later.

This doesn't seem totally unreasonable, but it would certainly wreck a DiD player. Just made me curious about other opinions on Master level difficulty.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:51 pm

So we've got one vote for optimizing to a non-stealthed power-attack doing 3370 damage against an unarmored foe on normal. If nobody else expresses an opinion in the next day or two, we'll run with that.

That'd be 1685 on Master, no? You'd still two-shot Alduin.

I support using Alduin as the benchmark. The highest damage output which doesn't trivialize that fight is my vote for the optimization goal.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:14 pm

That'd be 1685 on Master, no? You'd still two-shot Alduin.

I support using Alduin as the benchmark. The highest damage output which doesn't trivialize that fight is my vote for the optimization goal.

So what is a non-trivial fight? 20 hits, including arrows? I know it subjective, but we'll need to stick our necks out and pick some numbers so the discussion can move forward.

Max player hp is 600 at level 50. Max damage reduction is 80%. Max melee damage is 300 from an ancient dragon on normal.. So, 10 hits on normal. If we tune it to 10 hits to kill him on normal, that becomes 5 on novice, and 20 on master. That would put us at a 337 point power attack on normal.

... Hrm. We can do that without 1H enchants... Just well smithed weapons and 100 skill.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:32 pm

I think there's as many opinions on what a non-trivial fight is, as there's angry rage posters on this forum :hehe:

How about the ultimate goal of making a spreadsheet? Input your skills, perks, gear and enchants to calculate your TtBAt0 (Thwacks to Bring Alduin to 0) index.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:31 pm

So what is a non-trivial fight? 20 hits, including arrows? I know it subjective, but we'll need to stick our necks out and pick some numbers so the discussion can move forward.

Max player hp is 600 at level 50. Max damage reduction is 80%. Max melee damage is 300 from an ancient dragon on normal.. So, 10 hits on normal. If we tune it to 10 hits to kill him on normal, that becomes 5 on novice, and 20 on master. That would put us at a 337 point power attack on normal.

10 standing power attacks to kill Alduin on Normal sounds about right to me.

... Hrm. We can do that without 1H enchants... Just well smithed weapons and 100 skill.

Would potentially make Enchanting perks unnecessary.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:25 pm

Don't know if it's written down anywhere, but I've been playing around with the basic damage calculation.

Damage =
((Main Hand Shown Damage * (1 + Power Attack Bonus) * (1 + Dual Power Attack Bonus) * (1 + Power Attack Perk) * (1 + Dual Power Attack perk)) * Dual Power Attack Mod)
+ ((Off Hand Shown Damage * (1 + Power Attack Bonus) * (1 + Dual Power Attack Bonus) * (1 + Power Attack Perk) * (1 + Dual Power Attack perk)) * Dual Power Attack Mod)

Shown Damage = (Base Damage + Smithing Bonus) * (1 + 0.5 * skill/100) * (1 + Perk Effects)
Perk Effects = .2 * Barbarian or Armsman

Power Attack Bonus = 1 if power attacking
Dual Power Attack Bonus = 0.125 if power attacking with dual weapons
Power Attack Perk = 0.25 if power attacking and you have Savage Strike or Devastating Blow
Dual Power Attack Perk = 0.5 if power attacking with dual weapons and you have Dual Savagery

Note on Dual Savagery, you don't have to be power attacking with both weapons. Single power attacks get this bonus as long as there is a weapon in both hands.

Dual Power Attack Mod for the Main Hand is (2/3), for the Off Hand it is (2/3*2)

I've put it into a spreadsheet and will be adding some variables to play around with and upload it to google documents

Edit; https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auz-AA0GFObBdDFWS3BtTmw1aFRwcjJaWHBRZWxEQnc&hl=en_US#gid=0 Haven't tested bows and daggers yet but you can check out the calcs sheet to see my calculations

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:48 pm

Quick question, I hope it's not covered somewhere obvious and I'm just being dumb, but what are the slot affinities? E.g. Fortify Archery goes on the head and I think gloves, Fortify One Handed can go on the gloves, etc.

And what slots combos are people using? I'm running a Breton, One Hand, Archery, Sneak build with 1 point in Steel Smithing and using Skyforged/Wolf items right now. I haven't maxed anything yet, but I'm close, so I'd like to know what kind of Enchants I need to keep an eye out for in order to Disenchant later. With my meager current set of Enchants, I don't see a good pairing for the helm right now.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:44 pm

You can find the slot info here;
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:enchanting_Effects

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:17 am

That being said, highly informative thread, as a dagger user myself however i note there seems to be little info on that regard, despite stating that they do not benefit from 1-handed weapon benefits, exactly what does this mean? do no perks in the 1-handed tree benefit daggers? also, is there any way to approximate the 2x bonus from dark brotherhood armor without joining the dark brotherhood?

Daggers fully benefit from raising one-handed skill to 100 plus the respective One-Handed perks and Sneak Perks. However they do not benefit from "Fortify one-handed" enchants or potions (though they will still benefit from the Marksman potion as of 1.2.).

On the other hand: Even w/o ancient knowledge you can get 171 Dagger Damage iirc. So 342 for two daggers. Multiply this with 45 for a dw power attack with perks and Shrouded Gloves and you are already in the 15K damage ballpark, thus one-hitting any opponent even on Master.

You can get the 2x Backstab Bonus without joining the Dark Brotherhood (even more quickly and easily) by just killing the members of the dark brotherhood. Just start the quest as you would normally do and when given the choice to kill one of the three prisoners: Kill Astrid. She is wearing the full Shrouded-Set plus "Blade of Woe".

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:31 pm

While I'm asking for opinions... How do you guys feel about Master difficulty? I've rolled a new toon that's on some pretty strict rules... Pure Mage for perks, although all skills are allowed to be used. Can only use ore, leather, ingredients and souls / soulgems that I have looted / collected myself. No compass, no quest markers, map only in major towns, no fast travel except carriage...

I played on Master DIfficulty with a Level 1 char. I wasn't really up for the "no quest markers" or "no fast travel" stuff, since it didn't really make the game significantly more difficult for me - but a lot more annoying...

Opponents in the main Quest line seem to not level up, but at least Dragon Priests seemed to have a fixed level. I got Marcurio as Follower since he is insanely strong in the early game - especially when you can't get relevant weapon improvements for melee style characters. I played as a conjurer but everything got pretty simple when I was able to conjur a Draemora Lord. Even Dragon Priests and Dragons. Thoughest fight so far was against 4 giants and 2 mammoths at the same time - but I just kept running and conjured a Lord whenever I had enough Mana to do so. He would barely get one hit on a Giant/Mammoth before being killed - but since they don't regenerate HP and keep fighting him instead of me, once he is conjured I had enough Stamina to run away from them.

Dragons were fairly easy. You will only have to deal with "Dragons" and "Blood Dragons" iirc and both of them are rather easily dealt with. Not sure which kind of draugr I had to fight. Definitely the ones with the shout, but not sure if those were Death Lords or Overlords. Some of those fights got tougher, since they occasionally will happen right after zoning into an area giving you not much room to kite them. And even the Draemora Lord could not kill them very quickly.

Overall the game felt nice, since a lot of the loot (especially Morokei and Archmages Robes plus the staves) have been really nice upgrades. Unfortunately you can't do a lot of the Artifact Quests without using Level Ups. Most of them would be doable, I guess, but since there is a Level requirement you can't start them.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:04 pm

Trying to figure out how smithing works is making my brain hurt. It feels like they just picked random numbers and said "okay, that's when their smithing improves". Anyone have any insight on the calculations for how much you can improve armor at a certain smithing level?

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:24 pm

I found this chart on UESP:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Smithing
Scroll down to "Item Quality" on that page for the info about smithing upgrades and bonuses, reqs, etc. I don't know how accurate the numbers are, though...

-Loth

Edit: And yes, those look like just random numbers they pulled from their posterior regions (bethesda, that is).

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:41 am

Yeah, I saw the chart but I was hoping to form a calculation so if someone entered their smithing skill it would figure out how much they should be able to improve their skill with a bit of division and some rounding. Looks like I'll just have to do one big ass if statement if > 14 this, if > 22 this, if > 31 this, if > 40 this, etc, etc

When you throw in Alchemy and Enchanting too, not sure it would even be feasable to factor in all possble numbers without a solid calculation.