Complete Character Design Freedom (Damage Resist Caps and Ri : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:51 pm

Re: equation. I've got something close, but I'm having trouble with endpoints again. The lowest you can have smithing is 15, so why do we have a datapoint at 14? That nonlinearity is causing some trouble. The 0.0555 slope seems to be working pretty well, but tehre's still another variable in here I haven't been able to pin down yet.

Honestly, I would just ignore the 14 and carry on the equation to whatever point it needs to go to. It's not going to have any effect on the results if the 14 is there or not so who cares?

And I totally forgot about enchantments. I put dual elements on my warhammer and two shotted Alduin.

Edit: You can start improving chest armor at smithing 4, but it doesn't get a (Fine) tag, other pieces can't be smithed till 14 so it's probably just a rounding thing.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:51 pm

70 Enchanting with 2/5 Enchanter will let you make 20% Fortify Block enchantments. Two of those and a two handed weapon should hit the block cap of 85%

Fortify Block is enchantable in the following slots: Neck, Arms, Finger and Shield. Since you'd be using a Two-Hander, the Shield slot isn't available, and the other three conflict with the Fortify Two-Handed slots. However, if we can craft a Two-Hander with optimized damage without needing Fortify Two-Handed enchants, we'll have plenty of room for Fortify Block.

Is Cheshyr's Axe v. Sword v. Mace chart applicable to Two-Handers as well? I thought we established that Axes were best against anything that bleeds, but others chimed in later claiming that Swords were still superior.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:14 am

It depends on how much you want to believe the weapon speeds on UESP and wether they actually effect the swing time of Power Attacks. For two handed, Axes and Swords are supposed to have the same s wing speed anyway so axes should win.

Neck: Block, Two Handed
Arms: Block, Two Handed
Finger: Two Handed, Magic Resist (if needed).

Problem solved

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:54 am

I think we might have to fine-tune the swing speeds of the 2H weaps, because we were only testing the 1 handers before, right? Also, if we are going with a blocking-centric build, what's an acceptable passive AR that doesn't hit the cap? What perks/enchants can we drop from the defense/armor side that will be compensated for by blocking? Can we hit the blocking cap with any material weapon using a combination of enchants/perks?

-Loth

Edit: No offense meant to anyone who had posted the speeds on UESP, but I'm disinclined to believe their numbers without verification by us. We've already found some errors with their stats this morning concerning smithing...

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:02 pm

All weapons block for 40% as far as I can tell, so you just need another 40%, either two low enchants, one max enchant or 4 perks.

I wouldn't settle for anything below 567 AR and 85% MR, there's honestly no reason not to.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:02 pm

All weapons block for 40% as far as I can tell, so you just need another 40%, either two low enchants, one max enchant or 4 perks.

1/5 Shield Wall grants +20% Block; since most of us will be wanting Quick Reflexes, that seems like a no-brainer. So that plus one low enchant gets you there.

When you say one "max enchant", do you mean 100 Skill with the standard 8 perks, or with maximum crafting synergy?

I wouldn't settle for anything below 567 AR and 85% MR, there's honestly no reason not to.

Agreed, at least once you get into late-game content. But Two-Handed blocking is especially appealing to me because it will allow us to achieve a much better balance of damage and mitigtion in the early game.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:20 pm

In the early to mid-game, it might be helpful to know that you can use block effectively to mitigate before you are able to get the 567 AR. Even unboosted, a 40% mitigation is pretty nice. Plus, there's the increased gameplay aspect as well, bringing tactics and timing back into the picture. I'd love to see that a battleaxe turns out to be the best 2H weapon, damage-wise, because that's just pure barbarian goodness right there.

-Loth

PS Thanks for the block research, Dom!

Edit: LOL, Whiskey and I need to stop posting the same thoughts right after each other.

Or maybe that's just me...

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:40 am

When you say one "max enchant", do you mean 100 Skill with the standard 8 perks, or with maximum crafting synergy?

Anything at 40% will do. I'll run some numbers and see what it takes.

I ran some quick tests on weapon speeds, Swining constanly for 60 seconds, I get about .88 For swords and axes, .76 for Warhammers, Power attacks look to swing at about 2/3 normal speed. This was just eyeballing the clock so if anyone wants to run something more accurate with some recording or comes up with different numbers please speak up

By 'run some numbers' I mean look at the enchantment table and press E. 40% just needs the 6 perks.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:27 am

The real question is: which 2H weapon has the coolest kill animations? That's what matters the most to me, anyway.

-Loth

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:32 pm

Thread 7: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1313851-complete-character-design-freedom-damage-resist-caps-and-ridiculous-damage-thread-7/

I love dual maces. But you guys spent 2 days proving to me, despite my best efforts, that maces are suboptimal in every way... except they still one-shot Alduin... but that doesn't matter when in the pursuit of maximum dps. Yes, I'm still bitter. :flamethrower:

I'm just reporting results at this point.

Do not forget one important part about dps. If you kill your enemy with your first blow mace does best dps.

For example let's compare two example weapons: other shoots 1000 damage projectile every 10 seconds (dps 100) and other fires constant beam of 120 dps
-> "true" dps (1000+1000*floor(t/10))/t and (120+120*floor(t/1))/t
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%281000%2B1000*floor%28t%2F10%29%29%2Ft+%3E+%28120%2B120*floor%28t%2F1%29%29%2Ft%2C+from+t+%3D+0+to+12

As we can see high damage, lower dps weapon wins in this scenario if combat takes no longer than 16s after which point they are quite equal for short amount of time until higher dps takes the lead.

With maces and swords its simpler: if you can kill your enemy with single blow with mace, but not with sword: mace is superior, otherwise higher dps of sword wins. That second blow comes "a lot" faster with swords

But why not take best of both worlds? Main hand mace with off hand sword -> high damage and good speed. And if you want to ignore broken +47% damage enchantments completely mace + dagger is superior dps

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:59 pm

Note on dual wielding. Speed is determined by the left hand weapon, this weapon also contributes most damage in a power attack.

Normal attack = Damage shown
Power attack = (Damage shown * 2 / 3) With one hit from the right hand and two from the left hand.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:20 am

Note on dual wielding. Speed is determined by the left hand weapon, this weapon also contributes most damage in a power attack.

Normal attack = Damage shown
Power attack = (Damage shown / 3 * 2) With one hit from the right hand and two from the left hand.

Ok, that's a bit weird, and changed the Dual Weild dynamic yet again. Still working on smithing at the moment.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:13 pm

You still playing around with that 14?

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:34 am

You still playing around with that 14?

It's worse than that. This thing is actually 4 separate ranges, each with it's own slope... a slope that varies as the skill level increases. It's a nightmare of nonlinearity.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:45 pm

So I think the main thing to take away from all of this is;

Pure burst damage; Dual Maces
Best DPS; Sword in left hand, mace in right hand
Good damage with blocking; Two handed Waraxe (For bleed damage while blocking)
Gimping yourself; Anything with a shield, dagger especially

Dual weapons can one shot Alduin, even with Elven/Nord Hero, maybe even steel.
Two handed can two Shot Alduin, only tested with Daedric Warhammer, and it was close. Lower weapons might not manage it.
Weapon and shield hasn't been tested against alduin but my calculations spreadsheet says it will be a three shot with a Daedric Waraxe.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:32 am

Purpose of this thread:
This series of threads are dedicated to exploring mechanic interactions, build optimizations, and novel aspects of the game engine, in an attempt to find their outer limits. By knowing these limits, individual players can make an educated decision on how to play the game, in an effort to play in the way they find the most enjoyable.

Previous Threads:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1266212-2469-armor-3199-damage-using-smithing-alchemy-enchanting-only-31-perks/, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1275179-2419-armor-6399-damage-using-smithing-alchemy-enchanting-only-33-perks-329k-backstabs/, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1279078-2419-armor-6399-damage-using-smithing-alchemy-enchanting-only-33-perks-329k-backstabs-post-3/, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1289727-2419-armor-6399-damage-using-smithing-alchemy-enchanting-only-33-perks-329k-backstabs-post-4/, http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1300996-armor-cap-ridiculous-damage-enchanting-alchemy-smithing-only-21-perks-thread-5/

Contributors, in no particular order:
Jerich, Domilasa, Whisk3yjack, Nerevar X, DieBySword, Dimeron, gabriel_eliot, Excessive, fragonard, Human Being, wtflag, Barlow

tl;dr summary:

Any Armor can reach the Armor Cap of 567, which is 80% Physical Damage Reduction
Magic and Elemental Resist stack, and cap at 85%, which is 97.75% Magical Damage Reduction
All weapons can do obscene damage with the proper perks and crafting skills
Destruction spells can do obscene damage with the proper perks and crafting skills
You can use any weapons and any armor, and still have a viable character

Table of Contents:

Base Character Template, Crafting Gear (see below)
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1310006-complete-character-design-freedom-damage-resist-caps-and-ridiculous-damage-thread-6/page__view__findpost__p__19701928
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1310006-complete-character-design-freedom-damage-resist-caps-and-ridiculous-damage-thread-6/page__view__findpost__p__19701951
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1310006-complete-character-design-freedom-damage-resist-caps-and-ridiculous-damage-thread-6/page__view__findpost__p__19701971
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1310006-complete-character-design-freedom-damage-resist-caps-and-ridiculous-damage-thread-6/page__view__findpost__p__19701992

Base Character Template, Crafting Gear

The original discussion assumed melee combat, and a desire to maximize Armor Rating, Magic Resistance, and Weapon Damage. As such, Daedric Crafting was assumed, and a either One-handed or Two-Handed was incorporated into the baseline.

The result was the following template:

Enchanting (8) [100]: 5/5 Enchanter, Insightful, Corpus, Extra Effect
Alchemy (7) [100]: 5/5 Alchemist, Physician, Benefactor
Smithing (5): Up to Daedric
{Weapon Skill} (5): 5/5 Armsman or 5/5 Barbarian
Heavy Armor (1): 1/5 Juggernaut

These perks enabled:

29% Fortify Enchanting enchantments
29% Fortify Smithing enchantments
32% Fortify Alchemy potions
130% Fortify Smithing potions

Your process should look something like this:

Purchase and Drink a Fortify Enchantment potion (>=25%)
Fortify Alchemy enchantments 28% x4
Fortify Enchantment potions 32%
Fortify Alchemy enchantments 29% x4
Fortify Smithing enchantments 29% x4
Fortify Smithing potions 130%

This enables a total of +246% Weapon and Armor Improvement. It may be wise to make multiple of the potions during the process, just in case your spend too much time in the enchanting screen.

When the above crafting equipment and potions are used to craft and enchant your gear, you end up with some astonishing results:

Full Daedric Armor: 2125 Armor
Daedric Bow: 562 Damage
Daedric Dagger: 171 Damage
Daedric Two Handed Sword: 605 Damage
Daedric One Handed Sword: 518 Damage

These values assume 4x Fortify Weapon Skill enchants, and 4x Fortify Armor Skill enchants.

It was disappointing that the Fortify One-Handed enchant didn't apply to daggers, but the cumulative 30x multiplier from Sneak perks and Dark Brotherhood gear made it apparant why this was the case. These numbers are fairly extreme overkill regardless of game difficulty setting. 1500 Armor Rating was wasted due to the Armor Cap, and Dual Wield Sneak Attacks hit for over 32k after additional buffs from potions and racial abilities! In addition, it was fairly simple to hit the Magic Resistance Cap. Given that Ancient Dragons only have 3.1k HP, their melee attacks could be reduced to as low as 60 damage (lower with shield), and we could now stand in their flamebreath without noticing or caring... it was time to bend our efforts towards enabling player flexibility through optimization.

Crafting Console Commands:

Raising Skills:

player.advskill (skill) (uses) - Simulates using the skill x times. You can change the skill name and the number to level up naturally (doesn't screw up stats)

Smithing:

player.additem f 10000 - 10k septims
player.additem 2e4ff 10 - 10 Grand Soulgems (filled with Grand souls)
player.additem 3ad5b 10 - 10 Daedra Hearts
player.additem 5ad9d 10 - 10 Ebony Ingots
player.additem 877c9 1 - Gold Diamond Ring
player.additem 877f1 1 - Gold Diamond Necklace
player.additem db5d2 5 - 5 Leather

Alchemy:

player.additem 63b5f 10 - 10 Spriggan Sap
player.additem 1b3bd 10 - 10 Snowberies
player.additem 7ee01 10 - 10 Glowing Mushrooms

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:54 pm

If you were trying to say something, you forgot to put it in your post

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:49 pm

In the crafting section you have this:

Purchase and Drink a Fortify Enchantment potion (>=25%)
Fortify Alchemy enchantments 28% x4
Fortify Enchantment potions 32%
Fortify Alchemy enchantments 29% x4
Fortify Smithing enchantments 29% x4
Fortify Smithing potions 130%

I'm wondering if alternating between the thief stone to boost alchemy and back to mage stone to boost enchating could give another 20%+ boost?
I'm not high enough lvl wise to try it but it would be nice to hear if someone has tried it or whether it makes a difference at all?

Great article!

Sticky pls!!!

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:17 pm

The stones don't boost the effects, they just help you skill up faster

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:16 am

The stones don't boost the effects, they just help you skill up faster

Ah so it would help me lvl alchemy a bit quicker thanks!

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:10 pm

Do we have any idea on how shield power bash (or any weapon bash) damage is calculated yet? Is it based on armor rating, block skill, and/or shield material?

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:17 pm

I think Domilasa might have tested bashing already... did you check through this thread yet? Also, try thread 5, too... it was somewhere in here or there, I think. Either way, we need to add that info to the guide along with the rest of blocking. Thanks for the reminder, I think I'll check around and see what it was, and I'll post an answer in our current thread here:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1313851-complete-character-design-freedom-damage-resist-caps-and-ridiculous-damage-thread-7/

-Loth

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:23 pm

Shield Bash is affected by your Block skill and the perks Power Bash and Deadly Bash

Health of an NPC (the blacksmith in Whiterun)
95.00
94.10 - 0 block skill
92.75 - 100 block skill
88.25 - Power Bash
61.25 - Deadly Bash

93.31 - Glass 100 skill, no perks

94.06 - Hide 100 skill, no perks

Looks like it's based of block skill, perks and shield quality. One handed does not effect it nor does Shield Wall.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:14 pm

Health of an NPC (the blacksmith in Whiterun)
95.00
94.10 - 0 block skill
92.75 - 100 block skill
88.25 - Power Bash
61.25 - Deadly Bash

93.31 - Glass 100 skill, no perks

94.06 - Hide 100 skill, no perks

Looks like it's based of block skill, perks and ~~shield~~ material quality. One handed does not effect it nor does Shield Wall.

Gracias.

The only thing left to test is shield quality ie normal verus legendary, but this gives a lot more information than I had before.

Looks as far as what effects power bash damage the most is: Deadly Bash>Power Bash>Skill>Shield Material (last two are really close).

If you notice, Hide at 100 skill did about 0.94 damage while at 0 skill did 0.90 damage. Domilasa did you use a daedric shield for the first round of tests (ie 0/100skill, power/deadly bash)? Otherwise something is amiss since using a hide shield with 100 block skill (94.06) did the same damage as a random shield at 0 skill (94.10).

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:48 pm

Gracias.

The only thing left to test is shield quality ie normal verus legendary, but this gives a lot more information than I had before.

Looks as far as what effects power bash damage the most is: Deadly Bash>Power Bash>Skill~Shield Material (tied)

If you notice, Hide at 100 skill did about 0.94 damage while at 0 skill did 0.90 damage. Domilasa did you use a daedric shield for the first round of tests (ie 0/100skill, power/deadly bash)? Otherwise something is amiss since using a hide shield with 100 block skill did the same damage as a random shield at 0 skill.

I would assume that I did, since it did more damage than Glass whatever it was and Daedric is usually my default equipement, but if it's not written down I can't be 100% sure. I'm playing around with block again at the moment so I'll be posting more numbers in thread 7 when I'm done.