I would like to think I'm a pretty smart guy here (no laughing please - )

When doing the installation of FCOM I have to jump between two or three sites just to do the install and sometimes there
can be conflicting or confusing installation for MMM -OOO - FRAN - FCOM -

Is there a more up-to-date installation guide with what we should have ready to install - in what order and what options for each installation part
The old site that had the walk through was hard to follow at times but one could muddle through it they looked hard enough.

But this - with the updates and mobs (I still have no idea how they are used) and all the other information - well - let's just say
DUH for me - lol

So is there a more updated guide to doing this install in one place?

Thanks for letting me rant

Richard "THE GEEK"

I've heard this complaint before.


I believe the FCOM team maintain that the main FCOM thread is all one needs to reference to install FCOM.

Some have found http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/ helpful - though it is much more than just an FCOM install guide.

No there is not. The situation is hardly ideal. Your chances of installing FCOM correctly are the highest if you stick to these sources, IMHO:

- FCOM / UFCOM thread opening post
- Tomlong's website, and her FCOM guide in particular
- Blade of Mercy's 50-Steps guide, especially for the long list of additional mods beyond the FCOM base install

- Dev_akm's site is generally outdated, however it is still the only place where you get detailed descriptions of the various optional FCOM choices

Where exactly do we maintain that? In the OP it says:



So if we maintain anything it is to use the opening post in conjunction with the FCOM Homepage. Seems rather pointless to waste time on a more complete guide as all the FCOM mods are in the process of being updated so it would: 1. Take time from updating the mods and 2. Be outdated as soon as they are released.

What I would do ...

Create a page like Tomlong did one on a service/server other than here. Both on it and on the threads here direct people to that page and warn about Dev's page. Go ahead and start writing it now - how drastic will the updates be/can they be that things like the use of Wrye Bash, The basic mods involved, BSA dummy plugins, general overview and even detailed descriptions of core plugins (that you have a good idea is not going to change) ... also describe resolutions to common issues and problems from reducing spawns to things not loading. How to bash a patch. There is plenty to discuss even if some plugins get dropped or merged or new ones introduced.

Copy over as much of the images from Dev's sight, as well as, Alt3rnity's Bash page on nexus - plus whatever other guide seems worthy to link to. Embrace BAIN, not wizards but BAIN packaging itself.

Start the work now - why not. It has been over a year since the last unofficial update as memory serves me correctly. By starting this now when the new version rolls out then updates to this information will be easier to add.

That is what I'd think would work well, but beyond that I guess I could say one more thing about Dev's absence and the issues that has caused - which is if team FCOM really does believe that they have rights to carry on in his absence then step up and do so. None of this unofficial stuff or lack of website to rival the hits and placement at google search that his old site gets. Create the next step! Maybe Dev is not returning an email because he is not seeing there is something worthwhile to redirect people too. Call him out, make a concerted effort to get his attention, one up him ... something - this is old.

This would drastically cut down on threads like this, it would cut down on questions even in the regular threads. Plus then you all would feel less offended by the current alternate install guides that exist because there would be no need for them.

Or be willing to field more of these threads and have the FCOM thread filled with the same 10 questions over and over.

Now before you jump on me and start hounding me to all corners of the forum - you did ask.

I wasn't trying to start an argument here.
My idea (goal) was to see if there was a walk through for this
I was actually thinking - if someone is willing to help with this - of listing all the mods I was thinking of using -
What order the installs be in
What mods should I not use and why

I am even willing to put my email here and we could do it that way - and when I have all that done start from scratch and make a "doc" file of how I did the install and in what order

The FCOM homepage + the opening posts of the FCOM thread, + using the FCOM thread to ask questions = a good way to get FCOM installed.

If you write up another guide, you will only multiply team FCOM's consternation and confusion when someone posts in their thread asking for help after following (or failing to follow) someone else's instructions.

As long as Team FCOM is of the opinion that the documentation is adequate, the situation is what it is today: Some people will say all is good, while others will say not all is good. If and when Team FCOM comes to the realization that the documentation and possibly the structure of the various components need a facelift, we should embrace them and help in every possible way. I'm sure there would be more than a few hands in the community willing to contribute. Until that time it is a waste to put up yet another (good) idea, another constructive discussion, another well-meant new guide and so on... :shrug:

It's not necessarily a great idea, I think. The reason being, mods are changing, evolving things. And FCOM? Well, that's for the most part simply the glue that holds together up to four large overhauls, and often a bunch of other stuff as well. Each of those overhauls has had updates, just in this last year, IIRC. Or at least two of them have, for sure. A number, in one case. So, yes, you could try to have a "complete installation guide" or whatever, but it would always be at risk of becoming outdated, and therefore misleading.

Besides, FCOM installation, though perhaps at first a bit daunting, isn't hard. Not really. You follow the instructions, and it works. Can't ask for more than that, IMO.

Surprised to see that from you.

Basically there is tons of help available and instead of fighting against the alternate install guides they could be embraced, integrated, and surpassed.

Just read Oscuro's interview up in the interview thread he states quite clearly that packaging and presentation are essential to modding success and even rolling that over into a career. All this focus the next update that is quite a long time coming and little to no improving the documentation and packaging. Now I know I've seen that this will be addressed later and I guess I just disagree that it has to be later. I'm not trying to start a fight or attack anyone and I don't see this feedback as insulting as some have implied it to be. I agree that the nuts and bolts of how modding works and being elbow deep into the CS is the heart of it but so much could be gained from also improving access, presentation, ease of use, and an up to date Q&A. The more complex an idea or, in this case, mod the more simple and concise the instructions will be beneficial.

It is sad that Dev left his page inaccessible or at least doesn't want anyone to access or change it and that he left the job undone. He did have a flare for presentation and that website of his still has great information on it and it is quite accessible to read and use, but that does not mean that with all the diverse info available now that a better site could not be crafted and for nothing most likely. Look at what Tomlong created nearly on her own. Why wait for Dev_akm? I had a small BAIN guide for FCOM up once but once they let me know in no uncertain terms that it was not wanted or welcome - I took it down. Why fight them about it when just trying to help.

There is no point in another guide unless it comes from the FCOM team and if they feel that what is on the thread is adequate then how does one explain the consistent threads like this? If they continue to feel offended by comments, threads, suggestions, etc then that will lead to a more insular attitude. Which is too bad. I know I mean no harm and I don't think anyone else does. Let people help.

That was pretty much my point.

Well, lo and behold, that's exactly what you get in the FCOM opening post. It lists the FCOM mods, gives the install order plus links to a list of mods that have incompatibility issues with FCOM etc. Of course, it's impossible to list "all the mods I was thinking of using" as we're not mind readers and it seems to be beyond the scope of an FCOM guide anyway.

I'd say that between the info in the FCOM thread and homepage you have adequate info on how to install FCOM. In fact, if you have previous knowledge of Wrye Bash, BOSS and installing mods via OBMM/BAIN, the info in the opening post pretty much covers everything already.

I see two main issues with the current situation. One is that you basically have to find these boards to get updated info, which isn't ideal of course as many players presumably google info and just find the outdated homepage. But note that this confusion would stand even if we made the perfect UFCOM homepage, much as many OOO users have been confused by Sotobrasto's outdated homepage, which came up highest in the search results for years even if dev_akm's OOO page had more current info.

Also, of course, the info as it stands isn't newbie-friendly. If new to mods in general, Wrye Bash etc. it's surely rather daunting to start on an FCOM install. But then FCOM will by definition never be a a good starting choice for newbies.



It's a pity you aren't in charge of the development of all major Oblivion mods. If you were I'm sure everything would be perfect... Meanwhile, what you could do is stop coming with false/misleading info so we have to waste time refuting it. It would free up time to focus on more important stuff.

Radical suggestion, from one who has no stake in this at all: Have at it. You've been over the installation procedure enough I'd say you could come up with a good guide to it. The FCOM team is implying they don't have time to deal with it right now. Rather than talk about what you'd do, just do it. You never know. They might even be willing to advise you on it.

Arthmoor-

As it is they say I'm spreading false and misleading information. That does not bode well for getting help. I'm already seen as just about the worst thing to come to Oblivion. I mean how horrible of me to come up with suggestions about how to improve the installation procedure of a popular mod and to point out why there are threads like this galore, why it is so confusing, and what to do to change that.

I've no stake either really. I'd rather see support for TES4POSItive which has more than beginning to being the guide for Oblivion. I think a great addition to that site would be more about the logic of bash tagging and a section on how to debug problems - problems we see often on this forum. I'm thinking a two way rubric for them. On one side a set of symptoms and as you then find your symptoms this leads to links to causes and then solutions. Or you can search through the causes and solutions and work your way back to symptoms.


Arkngt-
Apparently everything is a waste of time - everything except generating more threads like this. Fielding questions in threads like this is apparently an excellent use of time. By creating a UFCOM page then at least it could be an option that comes up on Google. I was once part of that chorus of people who would jump on new users and tell them to use the FCOM relz thread then I opened my eyes to the fact that this forum is actually pretty small and that Google and other search engines are of course having a much larger impact. Thought myself a hypocrite - then started to look at the real cause.

But, to each their own. I'm sorry if you don't like my suggestions. In my initial answer to this thread I gave the guy a hint for a place to look for help. You asked I answered. I'm not trying to say anything to offend anyone - I'm really not. I'm sorry that you take it that way. It is meant as constructive feedback.

How can



be construed as constructive feedback? It's false and thus requires refutation - and I'd certainly rather waste time on anything else than bantering with the Don Quixote of Oblivion modding. :shrug:

Yes you did refute that and I did not argue you wrong. That statement is incorrect - you also recommend people read Dev_Akm's outdated site. But really for them to get the whole picture they should read the opening posts of FCOM, OOO, MMM and some more about Frans. The warcry stuff not so much.

But that leads back into the point I was making about the diversity of sources and really what the OP of this thread was asking for a solution to. There is no solution at this time.

got me there ... I was wrong. I'm OK with admitting that.

Well you won't really know without actually making the attempt. Unless one of them flat out tells you to get lost and not to bother.



No idea where you got that from, it's pretty over the top.

That said, you're not going to improve that perception by repeating the same suggestions each time the subject comes up. You can only fix that by acting on your own suggestions at this point, and then seeing if they'll go along with it.

At one point I offered to do the packaging on the next FCOM update - suggesting that they should embrace BAIN since Wrye Bash was already expected and it would keep everything unified with one installer. That would be the kind of guide I'd write - no secret there. Shikishima told me that was not acceptable that there would be no BAIN packaging. That only BCF would be considered. I put forth the idea that like most others do it that bain packaging with omod optional script was would be easier to do than creating both a BCF, BAIN wizard and an OMOD script. Still no. Hence my idea of how to do the guide is not welcome. I recall Tomlong getting a similar reception and getting feedback on the forums not to diverge from the official recommendations.

So - it is in their hands how they want to go.

But I get your point: put up or shut up.

The horrible comment was humor - quixotic style.

1. Psymon: Please stop bashing TeamFCOM already. Everytime I go to this forum and I read a FCOM thread and your post I see 1) TeamFCOM is not officially allowed to continue working just because dev_akm has not done a post in this holy place we call forum. 2) You complain about the install guide.

2. I understand that a complex mod install need clear defined instructions. And I agree that the current status is not satisfactory for anyone. What is needed is one central place like dev_akm site but things like those can't be done in a second. So instead of repeating the same stuff again and again do something yourselfs or rally people to assist.

3. FCOM is not one mod. How do you propose to do it? Only BAIN FCOM or all mods (Frans, WC and so on). Suggestions are always welcome but you don't need to get your feelings hurt by a no.

Yeah every time I come to this forum too I see plenty of help FCOM ______ threads too.

OK - done with this - I posted above what I was willing to do but it is not wanted. I too tire of the FCOM help me threads. I'll own that. But these suggestions are not bashing. If they say they are officially in charge then yay. Your second point is what I said. I guess rallying people is not my strong point.

So ... go team.

I'd BAIN all of them of course. I once had BAIN guides up for all of them but took them down once told that BAIN was not welcome. Francesco appeared and stated anyone can repackage Frans if they want, Warcry is pretty simple and near BAIN ready. UFCOM and MMM have active modders that could offer them as BAIN ready. That leaves OOO which again I'd recommend a BAIN plan be posted if true contacting of Dev or Oscuro is not possible.

My feelings are not hurt - I guess you can say I get the frustration of users trying to figure it all out between websites that do not even link to each other and threads that seem arcane to read at first.

So if BAIN is really a no, no never; Write a install guide yourself. Get all the info from the initial posts and devs website, put it together. Format is properly and sent it to CorePC. I don't think he will reject you or your help.
You must also understand that several locations with install order cause too much problems.

So what your saying is if BAIN is a no and that is the answer I see as working then I should just go ahead and write what they want - even though they say that everything is fine? I'm sorry I'm confused on that one.

Why not just get http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/?page=guides_mod_installation&subpage=fcom_installation_guide approved by FCOM? This exists but is not referenced by them. What is wrong with it?

Sure it could be improved with pictures but the essence is there. The main fault is that it is not official and as such creating another one will be feeding into more of the same about diversified and contradictory guides - and as such that motivated me to remove my more primitive than that guide.

And what would make that guide even less useful is the packaging itself - which can be addressed.

But see here we are again - and I apologize people for this thread - it is going round and round. I'm not trying to argue here but it seems with each step that I try to explain my position and my suggestions they are just read as complaints and arguing. I'm not wanting that.

Maybe I missed some posts. I didn't read that CorePC states the current situation is optimal. Even in this thread it is stated that you need dev_akms site and FCOM initial post to install FCOM. Two source which need to be read and understood. One step by step guide is best.

I don't know what is wrong with the link. When tomlong was active she did post a lot and also posted false information IIRC. If I would be the author of FCOM I would want full admin control over the site/information so I can react fast and update the site. As of now this site is maintained by tomlong, a third party, which might be the reason why there is no official reference to it. I don't know.

Well precisely my point - so creating yet another one is not going to help that. It needs to come from within that team and they say that it is not important. With Tomlong though she seemed willing to accept feedback and instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater convince her to change to the correct instructions/version. I believe that her motivation was the same as mine - just trying to help.

Again - folks - sorry for the posts if they seem argumentative.

While some might say Psymon seems like the Don Quixote of FCOM threads, he still holds a few valid points:

1. The FCOM website and the guide that comes with it is, at the current moment, outdated and thus has issues with the current FCOM.
2. Dev_akm has been inactive for a while, so there will be no changes to point #1 for an indefinite amount of time.
3. FCOM Team does not want unofficial (and thus, may be misleading or outright wrong) guides when there is an official one.
4. So unless Dev_akm returns or someone from the FCOM Team maintains the guide, the confusion will go on and threads like this will appear.

He has already hinted that his BAIN guide for FCOM got a negative reaction from the FCOM Team. And his posts were written in a plain, calm tone.
Quite honestly I don't see why he is getting all the replies; he cannot make any changes to point #1 ~ #4, and doesn't seem like anyone can, really.