So, you don't jump for the sake of jumping, and don't fall for the sake of falling? You jump and fall as your "class" needs (eg, to avoid traps and enemy attacks), and it levels well enough on its own to be useful?

I'm not saying it can't be fun, or that it can't be somewhat useful when leveled (though as someone who's never focused on acrobatics, I've never run into anything I had trouble jumping across or getting down from), but it's always struck me as something you have to go out of your way to level and use. It's not like using weapons, armor, sneak, magic, etc, where it improves on its own as you use it where its called for (hitting enemies, being hit by enemies, sneaking near enemies, etc), but is instead something you just do for the hell of it while traveling around. It'd be like walking around and swinging a sword at nothing, and expecting that to be the way you're supposed to work the One-Handed skill.

That's not practicality, that's tweaking what's already useful. The only practical hand-made spell I've ever found that wasn't designed to be overpowering is one that combines the Bound Armor stuff with a weapon, simply because it's a pain to have to switch between all the different spells and cast them in succession... and that's something that can be done now by default in Skyrim with dual-wielding the Bound Armor and Bound Sword/Bow spells.

Which costs magicka, and cuts in to the ability to deal damage and harm an enemy. A warrior increasing their defense doesn't hinder their ability to attack, but a mage casting shield spells will reduce their ability to cast fireballs or whatever.

A mage has no armor, and focuses on magicka which keeps their health and max encumbrance low. Enchantments are needed to help overcome this, either by providing some health, protection, and encumbrance directly, or by increasing magicka so they'll have enough extra for dealing damage along with the other spells for protection, health, and encumbrance.

A warrior will have strong armor, high health, stamina, encumbrance, and damage rate by default (compared to a mage), and has no need for magicka. Enchantments on top of this will be bonuses. For a mage, they need enchantments just to match up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying warriors shouldn't have enchantments, but it needs to be carefully balanced between the various classes. Giving extra enchantment slots to non-mages, however, just screams 'unbalancing!' to me, as mages are more prone to needing said enchantments to remain useful as enemies get tougher.

Even if you did not train acrobatics while playing like you normally would it was still an additional way in which you could define your character. Is there anything more beautiful in an RPG than looking back and seeing what your character has accomplished?

Your character might now be able to jump higher than others, and higher than ever before. As Scow said before acrobatics added the fun of different ways to take. Why would you walk through the streets if you could jump from roof to roof? Acrobatics may not have been the most usefull skill in general play, but there was still no reason to remove it.

It would've required more testing to make sure things didn't break because of it (jumping up to some place and getting stuck, getting out of an enclosed area you're supposed to be trapped in, etc), in addition to making sure it itself works properly and doesn't interfere with the other things you can do.

For the most part, I always jump with a purpose, unless said purpose is doing backflips in the Arena - but that's just showing off. Some people have to go out of their way to level and use it, but it's completely natural for me - I couldn't imagine not using it. I have to go out of my way to level and use almost any magic skill, which is difficult for my high-energy act-before-thinking playstyle.

Hmm... I had a "Smite Evil" spell, that combined Shock, Fire, Light, and Turn Undead on one of my characters (But I couldn't keep it up, because Turn Undead was in the wrong school), I also used some custom "On Touch Fire Damage in Radius" effects, for keeping enemies away. My brother loved his Supernova Mace (Fire Damage in a stupidly large area), which wasn't any more powerful than the in-game weapons. Fireballs that exploded into flame Atronachs were also fun

None of them were any more powerful than what the game offered, yet they were all immensely fun.

I think part of what screwed over the balance of enchantments between Mages and Warriors was the removal of cast-on-use items. Before that, enchantments offered access to utility spells for warriors.
Former complaint - that's the player's own damn fault. Look before you leap and all that jazz. It's as game-breaking as jumping on an enemy's sword.
Second Complaint - That's the fun part of being an acrobat. If it breaks a quest, maybe the developers should have just thought it through a bit. Of course, these are the same developers who are so self-absorbed in the "One and only way their quests are to be completed" that they blow a fuse just over the possibility someone might Levitate, Recall, or Jump. In this regard, Oblivion's dungeons were frequently better than Skyrim's. I don't like the design ethos used in Skyrim - Daggerfall had truly Non-linear dungeons, and Oblivion's were also frequently varied in terms of how to get through them. (I love Vilverin from Oblivion - possibly the best dungeon in that game)

Dammit! I'm turning into one of those insufferable Oblivion/Morrowind/Daggerfall fans.

Of course... there's a reason the games are becoming less and less in terms of the games: It would go against the lore otherwise - And in Skyrim, there's only one Tower remaining...

I suppose that's the rub. They weren't any more powerful than what the game offered, so they were essentially just flavor. I won't say it's useless to make custom "flavor" spells to help define your character beyond what skills/perks they use, but I think it needs consideration about how easy it is to exploit, even accidentally (how do you know how strong to make a spell, before it becomes too powerful for your level?), along with the dev time needed to implement and test.

More styles of enchantments (besides clothes/armor being constant-effect-only and weapons being on-strike-only) is something I miss. I like how Morrowind made the Constant Effect enchantments really worthwhile and valuable finds.

Not when it's on accident. There's quite a few places where it can seem that getting someplace is intended to be a challenge, only to find out you weren't supposed to reach it and get stuck. For instance, in one Dwemer Ruin, I noticed a row of pistons that I could get on and squeeze onto a ledge from. It was really difficult to climb because it was almost impossible to remain balanced on them, but eventually I got up there and found some Dwemer Metal ingots and other valuables. Another dungeon there was a chasm I had no hope to jump across, but I could probably make with the whirlwind sprint. Managed to make it over, and found a hidden chest with a unique pair of boots. In another Dwemer Ruin, I could fairly easily get up onto a ledge, and saw another ledge I could probably whirlwind sprint to. Tried that, and it pushed me away from the ledge, and I fell into a hole and got stuck. I wasn't supposed to get over that far and the only way out was to TCL.

In a perfect world where perfect quest designers could make sure never to overlook something, perhaps. The more stuff you can do, though, the more quest designers have to keep in mind when designing and the more that needs to be tested to make sure it's not broken. It's inevitable that some things will be overlooked when being designed and missed when being tested, so the pros need to be weighed against the cons.

I can agree about Skyrim's dungeons being off-putting with their almost religious design methodology: fairly linear path to a boss, leading to a back door that drops you out back near the entrance. Gets rather old and predictable, no matter how good looking they may be.

For the quest design, I can agree somewhat, but I don't think I can fully. Most quests wouldn't be bothered, but it would cause problems when you're supposed to be trapped, or when presentation could just teleport out in the middle of something. I'm not talking about long, drawn-out sequences, but even something quick like Molag Bal's intro.

Ada-Mantia is still up, and I'm not sure it can be said Snow-Throat is down. Any news on the Hammerfell and Black Marsh towers? Can the towers even be repaired?

A spell is too powerful for your level when you lack the magicka or school proficiency to cast it reliably, OR it uses an exploit such as Weakness to Magic stacking or Drain-Chaining.

More styles of enchantments (besides clothes/armor being constant-effect-only and weapons being on-strike-only) is something I miss. I like how Morrowind made the Constant Effect enchantments really worthwhile and valuable finds.

Bah - Save more often. Gamers these days

As IWTBTG puts it: YOU IDIOT! YOU JUMPED INTO A SWORD HOLE!


Hmm... maybe if the quest designers stopped trying to be so convoluted, we wouldn't have this problem.

I wish the developers had the guts to insert dungeons like Scourg Barrow and Direnni Tower. Castle Solitude's another great one.

Heck... Privateer Hold's an awesome introductory dungeon, with its demonstration of non-linear design. I probably should try to play Daggerfall as a pre-made class instead of one of my horribly broken nigh-invulnerable monstrosities, though...

Hmm... Even the greatest Acrobat is stymied by ceilings. And in places that magically trap you, can't they have forces deny the power of teleport? And sometimes, just a snarky "Well, looks like I got myself out of THAT mess" message on other quests would work - Failing/beating the quest in the process, though you may miss out on loot.

...Ah, so there are a few more left. Looks like Beth has more room to cut content!

All the legitimate complaints people have about dumbing down are completely undermined by Skyrim's sales, reviews, and the incessant praise from gleeful fans who will viciously try and defend the game against criticism with their confused logic - often bordering on mindless spam. It's pointless. Just accept that Bethesda are never going to make RPGs as good as Morrowind or Daggerfall again, and appreciate the series for what it is.

...


For all its flaws, Skyrim really isn't a bad game. It only becomes a bad game once you start comparing it to previous titles. Just enjoy it and wait for the modding community to flourish. That's when it'll really start to shine as a game.

Convoluted, as in accounting for a wide range of things the player can do? The more things a player is capable of doing, the more quest designers have to work to make sure the quest will function in a larger variety of situations the player can put themselves in, which causes convoluted designs so that the quests don't break regardless of what the player is allowed to do.

In some instances, yeah, but it would be a rather lame excuse to use too often (particularly if it happens where magical barriers wouldn't make sense).

Well yeah. Its a cyclical phenomenon in fantasy game franchises. Daggerfall was huge, morrowind was not and was static. But it was still a really interesting game, and al ot of fun. Then Oblivion came out, and little immersion was left. Skyrim returned imersion...but each time it gets simpler, it loses more than its gains. It didnt help that they force us to use Steam to play skyrim so they can stealth patch the game instead of being, you know, honest.

But it happened in final fantasy, somewhere after 9 or 10. If you havent played, FF12 basically forced you to use squad-based AI, doing everything it can to jam it into you thats what it wants.
It happened in Pokemon as it became vastly meta -- the reason black/white are what they are.

Even card games like Magic, and pen and paper games like D&D, have received this dumbing down, first in 3rd (which wasnt so bad) and then again in 4th, when you basically were playing an imagination-based Neverwinter Nights.. As has world of warcraft, on several occasions. its...a troublesome state, to be sure. One I always fear...I feared it with Oblivion too, but ultimately, enjoyed the game. I hope that my initial impressions remain true for Skyrim, since aside from those stupid shadow bugs (Seriously, fix the shadow bugs.) and the %)(# MENU, its been alright.

Oh and im pretty sure when you're on Hrothgar, the color is replaced with grayscale. (not really, but it REALLY looks like it.)

Most of these "losses" were from reduandunt systems


People need to stop believing in the misguided notion that the removal of something is always a con.

You know what grinds my gears? People who use the term "abuse" to jump over the fact that they removed ALOT of content that made the game UNIQUE. How many other games have let you create your own spells. They had HOW many different pieces of armor in morrowind? Lets go over this ok.
1 Helmet
2 Pauldrons
2 Gauntlets/bracers
1 Chest
1 Set of greives
1 pair of boots
1 robe which could be worn over the armor
1 pair of pants
1 shirt
2 rings
1 amulet

Thats pretty awesome, and gives you LOTS of customization. This is a singleplayer game. So is Oblivion. So is Skyrim. There is literally no way that one players playing preferences can hurt another player unless your a butthurt baby. Sorry if that is harsh, but its just how I feel.

They removed alot of things, and then streamlined everything else and made it SO easy that theres literally no intelligence required to play the game. Too lazy to read? No problem npcs only ever have a few short lines to say anyways, which also happen to convey ZERO personality.

I did a post awhile ago, where I compared the evolution of the elderscrolls series, to my favorite music, and how it has changed and become more mainstreamed and shallow over the years. I think I will do a thread on that now, perhaps some people will understand.

God Morrowind's armor system was terribly broken

Cloths+armor+robes was terribly unbalanced

Nobody cares about balance in a purely singleplayer game. Think you are tough sh*t in morrowind. Go try and fight almalexia and all her ordinaters and see how that goes. Unless your character is minmaxed, youll probably die. The point is the game allowed you the freedom to become a GOD if you so chose.

Those attributes and skills that dont have as great a use as some others? I dont mind playing a flawed character, as long as I like said character. Most of the flaws or mistakes you made at the start could be ironed out over time anyways. Balance kills things for me anyways. Magic in skyrim is terribly weak. And the martial system is overpowered. Thats the problem with the balancing imo.

Take a look at the new MMO that came out. SWTOR. All the classes are well balanced. Every skill etc youll aquire only ever really does a moderate amount of damage to anything your level. They do that so people dont whine and complain. Fights are not decisive, they take forever, because less skilled players want 1000 chances to win before the fight is over.

But thats an mmo. This is a singleplayer game. If the player wants to be a god, let him.

Even when I was pretty powerful in morrowind, I wasn't a god.... Yet anyways. I remember trying to kill umbra as a MAGE. Boy thats fun. I think I was level 17, and pretty close to being the Archmage. I had to make a spell that was special JUST for Umbra. It was a very high damage poison spell. Did little damage but its effect stayed for a LONG time. So here was my plan.

It was a close range spell, as to be as powerful as possible. I cast on him, and immidatly jump up using my tinurs hoptoad ring, which I think was a different variation because it also had a slowfall effect. I took a few magicka restore potions, and cast a few more big ranged dot spells I made. I then fell to the ground and umbra killed me in one shot... But guess what you cant do anything remotly like that in skyrim because its "not balanced".

Bethesda, as do many people myself included, cares about balance in single player games. Saying that no one cares is hyperbole and untrue.

Secondly, as a title of a thread on these forums pointed out before, this is SkyRIM not SkySIM. This isn't some simulation game for you to do whatever you want.

Thirdly SWTOR is so terribly unbalanced its not funny.

You forgot belts!

But yeah, in Skyrim ,you only need 6 pieces of equipment for a full set. That cuts the content by a lot. In Morrowind, I was so happy to find a glass pauldron. In Skyrim, merchants start to sell full glass armors like apples at a certain level. There's no challenge in equipping your character at all.

To me, the fact you decided to start a new thread but did not care to offer examples of the alleged misteps seems to indicate you're not really interested in having a rational discussion about the topic.

Sorry, but Morrowind's caves and dungeons were almost all built up using individual panels, floor sections, a variety of individual rocks, and various wooden sections and individual boards. Many of the basic houses were "pre-fab", with various "clutter" added as needed, and some rooms were also pre-configured, but the vast majority of the "dungeons" were anything but "premade tiles". I've used the construction sets in both, and was amazed at the flexibility and variety of Morrowind's interiors, and equally amazed at how many hours of hand labor went into making them. Oblivion's were almost exclusively "tiles", with obvious repetition.

The Morrowind and Daggerfall fans will stop saying "dumbed down" when the Oblivion and Skyrim fans stop saying "nostalgia".

A combination of Skyrim and Morrowind would make a great Elder Scrolls game. I love most of the new things Skyrim has added, but I also love most of the stuff that has disappeared from Morrowind.

Skyrim was definitely a step in the right direction (compared to Oblivion), but my personal preference would be for Bethesda to seek even further inspiration from Morrowind, while keeping everything good they added with Skyrim.

How so? I hate the limited number of enchantments I can have active at a time.

Part of the problem is the "passive" nature of all worn enchantments - Why must all outfits be "On Equip?", and all weapons be "On strike"?

I like Daggerfall's system:
1 Gloves
2 Pauldrons
1 Chest
1 Legs
1 Boots
1 Shirt/bra/harness
1 Pants/loincloth
2 rings
2 amulets
2 marks
2 crystals
As many miscelaneous objects as you care to carry.

We should have more, not fewer, options. Also, I really hate the limitations on what can be enchanted to what in Skyrim - I don't wear gloves, boots, or carry a shield. Why can't I have elemental-resistant armor?

Honestly, if they want to "Balance" the game, they should make armors be "Constructable" - you get to select the Pauldrons, pants, shirt, and/or cloaks you want to wear, and then enchant the whole suit instead of each individual part.

Actually it would not matter if you were too strong for your level. The only way that could ever matter was if the game was almost completely leveled (Oblivion) and Bethesda will not make that mistake again. If my level 5 mage can take on lvl 10 monsters than that is good for him. This would not influence my game at all expect that I might be able to finish certain quests sooner.

Dumbed down is used to describe a system or feature in (this case) a game. That says absolutely nothing about anybody at all.

For instance, the limited generic magic system in Skyrim is dumbed down from the freedom and uniqueness we used to have in previous TES magic systems.

Note how not a single person was referenced in the previous sentence.


The only practical use for spell making is to make stronger spells, and that's bad. But the practical purpose of alchemy and enchanting is to make stronger potions or enchantments(or more numerous), and that's good? You realize your saying basically the same thing for both yet calling one bad and one good? I guess I'll just never understand the people who praise the removal of spellmaking because it was unbalanced, yet turn right around and defend alchemy, enchanting, and smithing.

@Kovacius- So have I. Plus, working on textures means spending a lot of time looking at individual meshes and I can promise you, the vast majority of the Dwemer tileset, for instance, is pregenerated blocks just like Oblivion's.

Oblivion's meshes just seem more repetitious because they're much more detailed, so the tiling is more apparent.

I'll stop saying "nostalgia" when fans of the older games stop spreading misinformation to make the newer games seem worse by comparison.

I am disappointed, but only because TES isn't what I want anymore.

Skyrim is an excellent game, but it's not for me. I can't really put my finger on it, but I don't have the inclination to play Skyrim anymore and I don't think I've even logged 50 hours on the game. I'm not really interested in playing an action rpg and I'm not overly keen on the direction the writing has taken, both in terms of lore and individual quests.

Maybe I'm just getting old.

The meat of the lore is still writen by MK the same guy who made up most of the good lore since Morrowind

This is my stance as well.