One thing that's important for a game is the level of complexity, if it's too easy there's no challenge but if it's too hard it can easily slip into frustration.

However something people have to keep in mind, there is a big difference between "complex" and "complicated". For example, in my opinion at least, the inventory management in Oblivion was not complex, it was simply complicated, especially when comparing it to Morrowinds "All on screen" Inventory.
Just saying "everything needs to be more/less complex" doesn't work, the problems need to be tackled individually. The main decision point here is "what makes it more immersive, what makes it more user friendly".

A few other examples (those are my personal opinions, feel free to add your own):
-The map:
I'd like to see the return of a mini map as having to constantly go to your inventory to check it is annoying. Some suggested a method similar to FarCry2 where you push a button to bring out the map and look at it real time. While this sounds interesting I think it's still a break from the games flow.
Of course however both can be in the game the same time, you can have a mini map and, when you need a bigger one, just press the map button to display a larger version.

-Health/Injure system:
This is one where the game should take a step up in complexity. Just having a hitpoint system can be very bothersome as Oblivion showed, it pretty much boiled down to hack and slash (and no it was not due to how the combat system worked, it was the hitpoints and level scaling system).
A lot could already be done by a locational hit system but even more by a injure system, even deeper with one that takes the kind of damage into account.
There are some good examples of games that have very detailed injure systems and still work well like "Call of Cthulhu: Dark corners of the earth" (by Bethesda BTW, take a hint from yourself guys), "Deus Ex" and "Dwarf Fortress".
I once posted a system that had a huge list of different hit locations and their effects, many said "that's too complicated", however what it would have done is giving weapons realistic chances of damage rather than basing it purely on a damage value, like an arrow being dangerous because it can pierce vital organs and not because it has a high damage value.
It wouldn't require more by the player really as it would happen automatically, it would simply expand the healing system and how you can strategically fight opponents.

I can actually see the only bigger problem be that it removes the "tough guy" stand point who can take a million hits and still stand and replaces it with "you can be as tough as you want, if you get hit you die like anyone else". And that many think it would mean "arrow to the head = dead" but it doesn't have to, it would be severe but doesn't have to mean instantly lethal.

-Alchemy:
Here it could use a up in complexity too, not necessarily to make it more complex to use but simply to get more out of it. Why weren't you able to make your own bone meal when you could find bones everywhere? Or grind wheat to flour? Why was a pumpkin that weighs 5 pounds the same as a single strawberry?
Here it should take more into account than just how much you put into it, there could be actual potion recipes where you still put things together by effect but there are exact measurements which gives the best result.



Well these are just 3 examples of what could use more complexity and what could be simplified, it's still a matter of what could be considered complicated rather than complex.
Some systems could be both considered to become less and more complex within certain fields, the Leveling for example. Here new mechanics could be added that both expand the leveling system http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=995978&view=findpost&p=14421066 but the same time simplifies the mechanics to be less number crunching by adding automatic and direct leveling and distribution.

But what are your thoughts on what should be more complex, what should be simplified and what was fine?
Please, as mentioned before, don't just say "It should be more/less complex" but actually give examples.

If Bethesda just looked at your suggestions alone, and did it all to your exact order, TES V would be perfect.

what would be the point of armor if you died in one hit? then cursing would be popular as a wolf eats your rotting carcass.

The purpose of armor would BE preventing you from dieing in one hit obviously

I'd like to see the inclusion of firearms in TES V. This being said, to make the game more complex I'd like to see some sort of cover system and effects to where you are shot, for example, if shot in the arm you drop your gun.

Sorry if i lean out the window a bit here but was that a DELIBERATE attempt to bomb this thread O_o...?
PLEASE keep the firearms discussion out of this, i want this thread to stay alive...

Otherwise on cover system and a risk of dropping things when hit, those sound fine.

I personally think bethesda learned from their mistake with oblivion's hp/leveling system. In reality oblivion was far better than morrowind in that aspect, in morrowind if you got off the ship in seyda neen, got a knife, and attacked at random one of the townsfolk they would almost always hand your ass to you by merely using their fists, even though you STABBED them repeatedly. I think TES5 will be another step forward.

There is an ability in Oblivion to disarm opponents, but this in no way deals with the problem that I can slash at a guy's arm all day and his grip won't weaken in the least.

I'd say they need to bring more complexity to the reputation system so that, kinda like in Daggerfall, one group can love you and another hates your guts.

Also, They need to make the quests more dynamic, so that you can be more than the helpful adventurer/puppy kicker. There needs to be an option to be subtle and conspiratorial in ones actions, and playing the good guy needs more consequences.
Basically:
1. If your a generous good-guy, people think of you as more of a charity then anything.They'll try to screw you over in the process of enlisting your services.
2. ON the other land, Playing the evil bastard from the depths of some pit of cruelty will have the guards trying to lynch you and the average citizens occasionally banding together in an attempt to end your life as a blight upon the land.
3. The more pragmatic good guys would be able to be good without getting screwed over.
4. The subtle evil guys would be able to avoid mobs trying to lynch them.

There definitely needs to be more complexity in the political, social and economical aspects of the game. For example:

- Joining a faction or a guild will have an affect on how other guilds/factions treat you. Rival guilds will not accept you, and may even try to kill you. This concept was introduced in Morrowind, and should have been fleshed-out even further.
- Belonging to a certain religious cult or temple would gain you favor with some, while others would revile you. Just being a certain race would make other races like you or despise you, depending on previously established lore. Even your six could gain favor with members of the opposite six (or even same six, depending on yours and the NPCs sixual disposition).
- Economy needs an overhaul by making it appear that a merchant's inventory rotates every week or so. Also, merchants should have gold that respawns every week, but the amount of gold they have varies depending on how much of their 'inventory' they were able to 'sell' during the week, and how good their mercantile skill is.
- You should have the option of choosing a side. That is to say, if you do favors for one noble, you could very well displease another noble. It should not be apparent that one noble is good, while the other is evil, either.

This is just a couple of examples off the top of my head. It could (and should) obviously go much deeper than what I have described.

Additionally, I would also like to see more moral ambiguity when it comes to deciding which quests to accept. Aside from that, I would like the combat and magic system to be more complex in terms of mechanics. Anything that has to do with the user interface (e.g menus, and in some instances, gameplay), however, should be as simple and intuitive as possible.

More things you CAN do. not more things you MUST do.

I disagree to some extent. Rising to the top of rival guilds should be impossible, indeed, BUT infiltration of a faction on behalf of a rival faction (concept introduced in Oblivion) is something I'd like to see taken much further. Adding in the possibility of defections would add a much-needed level of complexity and make the game more interesting.

As mentioned by Sojourner, it shouldn't just be "you belong to X, go away" but there could actually be different choices like infiltrating, secretly juggling between two, playing them against each other or hell maybe even working on some kind of unity.

Choosing sides is ok but it should NOT be "one side is good, the other is evil". You already had the choice which great house to join in Morrowind and, as far as i recall, they all had pros and cons but none was outright evil. As a series of Videos about game design once said the best choices in a game are the ones with equal "reward" since it's easy for most to decide "I'll just go for the better reward".

But deffinetly agree about the last part, mechanics can be more complex, anything that has to be with interface should be as simple and user friendly as possible.

I agree with you on the difference between complex and complicated. Unneccesary complication of the game should be avoided

1 complication I'd like to see is different types of weapon being more or less effective against certain types of armour eg warhammers being ideal for taking on foes in full plate. All the player needs to know is the general principles, the game can handle the mechanics of it

On the whole injury thing, I think that getting reduced to zero hit points shouldn't necessarily mean death, that should be determined by where the last hit was placed.

Sort of like if you sneak attack someone, and reduce their health to zero, but hit them in the thigh, then they simply become imobilized, still screaming in pain and holding the injured limb. This could be used for distraction tactics for thieves and assassins. This could also mean, that beating an enemy doesn't necessarily result in their death, then we could have execution moves, choose to have mercy on a beaten enemy could result in gain of a friend.

Of course, reducing hit points to zero as well as hitting a vital area should result in instant death, or if the damage to the non-vital limb is overwhelming, it could sever the limb, resulting in a slow death.

The way encumberance and fatigue affected movement was much better handled in MW than Oblivion. The annoying thing is the change was altogether unneccessary as the game kept track of everything for you. A PC game can handle things like fatigue and encumberance much better than a PnP game where the referee and/or players have to keep track of all the numbers. Theres really no excuse for not using a computer for what its good at, number crunching.

I'd like to see a more complicated damage system where weapons/spell effects do particular types of damage and different types of armour protect better against 1 type of damage than another. It needn't be complicated for the player, all they need remember is warhammers are better than spears or swords against plate armour and the game can do all the complicated work behind the scenes.

I'd also like to see locational damage and injuries, although in a SP game some leeway must be given. Going unconscious might be more common than instant kills from a head hit but in SP its just as bad.

edit: just noticed this thread has been resurrected and I was the last person to post before the reviver

Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. ... -Albert Einstein

The question, "Complexity, but how?" can be answered by taking a look at the reality around you. Reality, that is apart from our own contraptions and machinations, is in many ways "simple". Think about what you need to live. You need to eat food, sleep and breath. Eating the right food is not hard, it's simple. But is that the end of the matter? Eating and digesting complex proteins is really a very wonderfully complex matter, not to mention the way the body uses this fuel to manifest new living cells and replace old ones. Everywhere we look in life things always get more complicated the more we look into them. There is a saying that some have, "the ignorant have deceived themselves into believing they know a much about a matter, it's those who understand that admit they know very little". The point I am trying to make is essentially what Einstein said, and reality has a wonderful way of being supremely complicated and yet executed in it's simplest form.

In a videogame the goal should be just that, to have a simple concept, something that is implemented to feel natural, yet if we wanted to know more or use an element in a more complicated way we could find and do exactly that.

For example you could have sword-fighting as a game element. If you are a casual player who plays a few hours here and there you will not want to open up your skill statistics and see 15 different kind of sword skills each with a set of leveling and possibilities. It's just too overwhelming! Instead having one skill that says: Sword-Fighting, knowing that it well represents your ability to use a sword is very satisfying. But what about those of us who are more interested in immersion? What if we want to be able to use a dagger more proficiently? What if we like katanas or long-swords? Well how does this work in the real world... If you are a to become a swordsman you might start out learning some basic physics to swords. Even though there are many kinds of swords, the physics behind them is relatively the same. When you start out you know almost nothing about swords, and in a sense it would be like that casual gamer looking at his one skill "Sword-Fighting". Now lets say you want to advance your sword-fighting abilities and train under somebody else. You would probably do research and learn about other sword-fighting styles.

Which brings me to my next point, that rpg game developers seem to be on a 'dumb down' mission so their games are more accessible to a larger audience. But what exactly needs to be dumbed down? If you wanted to take basic sword-fighting classes in your hometown and had no interest in advancing because it's just a hobby they wouldn't need to stop all advanced sword fighting knowledge and implementation around the world on your account! And if you wanted to learn better fighting skills you would probably need to find and relocate yourself to train under the appropriate master. The same can be true for games. They can have a core set of simple rules in place that govern all your statistics, but if you are the 'hard-core' gamer and want to increase your skill in long-swords etc. it would be possible! There would be a sub-skill under the main element "Sword-Fighting" that you could find and train. But only if your looking for it! Just like in real life. You usually don't stumble upon a sword master at market, or a master iron worker at town and one thing led to another and you have an apprenticeship in their trades.

There should be the 'gloss' of simple understanding that does not need to go any further if one does not want to in games, yet have all the elements role-play gamer craves when he sits down to play. Deep leveling system and skill-trees. The ability to customize your character and plan out your avatars future as if he were the body of your soul, the complexity in place like it is in real life without detracting from the simplicity of normal gameplay.

You wouldn't have a giant sheet of statistics initially for the player to look at and get overwhelmed with. Just like reality often eases us into a greater understanding of the universe as we make progress from birth to old age, things should start out very simple and continue to get deeper and complex.