Greetings!

I am extremely concerned about the game, but not in the way you might be imagining. I have enjoyed TES since Daggerfall, especially Morrowind. At the time I assumed it was because it hit all the RPG factors I consider important: a character progression system, rich lore, intriguing and discordant political system, a large amount of varying factions, and, of course, a sense of exploration. I also enjoy doing these activities with friends, so this game sounded like my ideal. It wasn't until much later that I realize WHY I love TES so much.

However, since WoW, I've watched game after game launch to great fanfare and fail to meet expectations. Some were more bold in this regard than others (remember Rift's 'You're not in Azeroth anymore!'?) yet all essentially copied WoW's formula while applying a twist. For Tera it was live-action combat, for Aion it was PvEvP, for SWToR it was complete voice-acting and tailored story, so on. Each game was decent in its own right (I still play SWToR) but they all were too timid to do away with one WoW holdover that I fear will doom ESO. It's what the gaming media and players themselves think the only way a game will succeed is they have enough of...

The Raid.

The reason I love TES so much is the lack of Raid. End game for me in Morrowind took about 1.5 times longer than the Main Quest, side quests, faction quests, Mournhold, and Soltsheim combined. It was simple, breath-taking exploration. I spent hours in the Ashlands hunting every ebony cave, every Kwama egg mine. I spent time hunting Grand Soul Gems so I could trap Golden Saint souls and make the very best Fortify Magicka enchantments on my clothing. Why? Because I wanted to see the biggest, widest, longest-lasting Fireball possible (I named it 'Nuclear Bomb'. Why not? I tried it first on Divath Fyr, of course). I spent time hunting Daedric ruins for the Dai-Katana when I had little skill to use it. So I spent time with my Long Blade skill! I scoured the world for every book there was. I played with the Fork of Horripilation. The point here is that the end game was whatever I wanted it to be, and I bet you all had your own little objectives in your game, too.

For some reason, the Raid is absolutely required in MMOs as an endgame, with a few rare exceptions. In every MMO I've tried, the big deluge on launch raced to max level to crush the Raid and report back to forums and blogs that it wasn't good enough. SWToR has some of the best stories to explore (for being too theme park) yet the complaint was, yes, you guessed it, the Raid. This is the one and only metric that matters to WoW crowd is the Raid. And every game since WoW has tried to pull in WoW's numbers by copying the Raid.

It's clear at this point that no one is going to top WoW's numbers, yet I fear ZeniMax is going to try anyway. They'll feel pressure to make the changes the WoW crowd wants: watered down leveling, exploring, and crafting, so we can get to Raid. All obstructions to grinding Raid is a problem to be dealt with to these people. The journey means absolutely NOTHING. They are not going to make an exception for ESO. They will buy the game, there will be a big pile of people, and then the first 6 months will see a giant drop-off in population as the Raid doesn't measure up.

I don't want to be concerned about the game. So let's try something different. To Hades with the Raid. Stay true to TES, and give us the sandbox we expect. Change the metric! Up front we aren't concerned about hamster-wheel Raid.

It's not changing, and sandbox MMO's would never survive in today's enviroment. That, and it is FAR, FAR, FAR too late for them to change it now.

Wow, you can see the future? Seriously, what is "today's environment"? With enough publicity (to attract the right crowd) and no monthly payment I'd love to see that kind of game, and I know tons of other people who would like to see it as well.

They AREN"T surviving, the very few that are still around barely have a community and the only reason the games are still around is because the companies'es have literally nothing else.

We know this because of all the sandboxes that have been tried. Which is... well... wait, when was the last one?

I know they can't change what they've created thus far, but they can change what's being planned post-Launch. The WoW crowd is going to come, leave after the free month, and go about the internet bashing the game. I could list 10 games that have come and gone trying to capture these people. They want WoW, and will go back to it. TES fans are not Raiders. So why give us a game full of Raid that the WoW-crowd isn't going to play and that TES fans never needed?

I want a chance to explore with friends. The Raid svcks up so much development that nothing else gets attention. If we know this before, why make the mistake again?

Id prefer a sandbox game over themepark, i'm personally sick of quest based MMO's.

nope, not happening, sorry. ESO is the way it is and it is not changing, nor changing direction. ESO "Raids", called adventure zones, are not the same as raids in Themepark MMO's, anyway so the point is moot.

There's one, since Sony shut down SWG. That's Eve, which is on its 19th expansion. It's older than WoW and still going on.

Does it have 7 million subscribers? No. Neither will ESO. But there is an absolute dearth of sandbox MMOs, and a TES with PvP and small group PvE dungeons/exploration would draw plenty of people. No need for big Raid that they'll need to pound out ever 4-6 months to keep those people playing.

EVE is all but dead, only reason it is still going is because the company has nothing else.

Once again, The direction ESO is going is NOT changing, it is FAR too late.

As am I. That's why I'm so concerned about ESO. I have to hope that if one developer will not put all the gear and character progression behind a Raid/Adventure Zone/Area With Multiple Combatants or whatever else you'd like to call it, this is it.

fun fact, wow did not invent the raid

Fair enough. Saves me from wasting money on another WoW clone. Just have to wait for TESVI.

lol at yet another clueless poster claiming a game to be a wow clone. the second someone even says the term wow clone when talking about ESO they lose all credibility

yup, agreed, anyone who thinks ESO is an Evercrack-clone has not been paying attention.

My credibility (or lack thereof) is a non-issue. It has no bearing on the question at hand. It's not as if you've done anything to dispel my ignorance, so I'm not sure why you act as though you're taking some kind of moral high ground.

Either the game is a theme park, or it is not. The other yokel feverishly objects to any inference that the game is a sandbox.

you cannot put games into 1 of 2 categories and then say every game with in a given category is the same. it simply does not work like that.

Themepark does not equal WOW-clone, if you think like that, then EVE is EXACTLY like SPORE in every possible way simply because they are sandbox games.

Au contraire!

Either the game is designed in such a way that all players follow a predetermined path, or they have the freedom to do as they wish, when they wish, however they wish. TES is known for being an open-ended game. You are not required to do anything once you enter the world. More importantly, there is no penalty for choosing not to do so. I can gather just as much power, gear, and personal skill by coming off the boat in Morrowind and disappearing into the countryside.

You would perhaps have a point if Raids/whatever were just another way of accomplishing a goal, but I've yet to see a game where raids only gave equivalent gear to what I could find, on my own, at the bottom of any cave. Somehow I doubt that is the case here, either, because despite what raiders claim they need to be bribed into doing it with superior gear.

I would just love to be wrong about ESO. Thus, my concern. What I'm getting from people, though, is that is not the case.

you understand what the term clone means right? by your logic everyone born with 2 legs is a clone.

Different in degrees, not kind.

Six Flags and Cedar Point are not exactly alike yet are theme parks just the same. I've tried far too many games that attempted these minor distinctions, and people see right through them. Aion tried the same thing: "We don't have raids! We have encounters!"

Anyway, I appreciate your time but until I see more of what the plan for non-PvP I have no choice but to remain concerned. Good night.

why be concerned? just dont buy it. people get way too emotional about this stuff. this game clearly is not for you based on the things you have said. no one person will like every game and no one game will be made for every person

Everquest Next will be a sandbox game. They were doing the typical quest driven game and when SWTOR failed to meet its goals they decided that the quest driven MMO genre was over-served and tossed out what they had done and started over as sandbox. The art stylings are a bit goofy, alas, but I want to try it out when it launches.

By the way, it is so much fun to watch people spasm and twitch and cry and flail when someone uses verbal shorthand terms like "wow clone" (as opposed to typing out "quest driven MMO"), keep it up!

I agree that the "raid" thing needs to be left behind so we can move forward.

Someone is going to figure out how to couple story with sandbox gameplay and launch the 4th Generation of MMO's.

Obviously that MMO will not be ESO.

If you think this game is a wow clone then idk what to tell you other than go watch some videos and do some research about the game. As others have said just because the game had raids doesn't mean it's a WoW clone.

Really you shouldn't get offended. Coming here and crying WoW clone just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

I have an idea for this kind of game. Imagine a chess board as world map, the black squares are quest zones with stories and such, the red squares are sandbox zones with random events and open exploration.