Concerns about the PC version : V - Skyrim

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:04 pm

Although I'm not getting the game for PC I know that Bethesda doesn't seem to implement draconian DRM measures so I doubt they would this time around. One thing that I do have to say about Bethesda is this seems to be fairly consistent with all of their games and I like their policy (or at least what information I can gather about the subject).

As far as technical aspects I'd say expect bugs as always

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:08 pm

I don't want to be involved in Steam.

Will I be able to play the game?

I understand it is not possible to play Fallout New Vegas without being involved in Steam, and that is why I haven't bought that game.

The idea that Steam prevents piracy seems to me to be unproven and largely speculative.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:43 pm

I think this is a good time to ask, because a lot of people have been saying things like this: why is Steam such a deal-breaker? You clearly have the internet, so it can't be that it's preventing you from accessing retail-purchased games. So what is it?

I have the internet right now, yes. That does not mean that I will have it available when travelling with my laptop and want to install a game I purchased and have on physical media. That is the crux of my problem with steam: it inserts itself as a relatively benign(for most people) layer between you and the game you own, for no justifiable reason whatsoever. Bethesda did not have DRM as intrusive as a third party resident program on previous games barring FO NV and they seemed to have remarkable sales; why do we suddenly need to be burdened with an internet connection requirement for every install?

I have steam by necessity for several Valve games(all of which require massive downloads even though I have physical media), and I can't articulate any benefit whatsoever to the system. It simply does not offer anything, and makes my games more cumbersome to install and launch.

I understand that some people love Steam and having it as an option is fine; mandating it as the only vehicle for PC installs is not and will lose Bethesda several purchases from me.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:26 pm

Nope, you can't possibly put a TES CS on a console...first its illegal because of Microsoft, second your console would be overloaded, thrid simply because the the forge in halo 3 and the TES CS are VERY different...one requires knowledge and lots of file editing the other takes nothing but skill.

Actually CS would work fine on consoles if Bethesda worked with it. There are already full fledged map makers on the consoles ALA the Farcry series, games that require programming knowledge to make games, and even games that teach you how to make games inside of said game.

Back on topic, dear God, please no Steam. Just key and disc check PLEASE. Steam is such a friggen mess and I want to use it as little as possible. If it does require steam this will be the first TES game I don't get for PC.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:16 pm

I'd say to BGS: don't bother. Your game will be cracked within three days of release, before that if a copy finds its way onto the net before 11/11/11. Don't punish honest gamers, they are often the only ones hurt by DRM.

The reason devs use Steam is to stop Day Zero piracy, which it does due to the encryption of game files before release. Now the Xbox 360 version of games are getting cracked and thrown on torrent sites days before the PC version, which is a significant breakthrough and could sway many potential pirates to buy the game rather than wait a few days after release for it to be cracked. I would love it to be DRM free, but even then I'd buy it on Steam since I have many friends who use the community features.

Just wait till STEAM starts charging monthly fees.

This thread just went from constructive to delusional.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:33 am

The idea that Steam prevents piracy seems to me to be unproven and largely speculative.

Actually it has been proven. Wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if TESV also has Steamworks in it, nor does it matter to me.

Just wait till STEAM starts charging monthly fees.

Microsoft tried that with Games for Windows Live. Epic Fail. Valve knows better, and i'm sure they get a cut from game sales trough Steam, so there's no need for such measures.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:34 pm

Here we go.

Steam bash thread #99999.

I have no problem with it at all. Honestly, it takes up hardly any space on your HDD, it uses a very minimal portion of your RAM. Only problem people have with it is that it requires the internet. Is that really a problem? What's so hard about having an internet connection? I mean you all are on here posting on the internet, so whats the problem?

And really, if you do lack a stable internet connection or WHATEVER your complaint is, who is to blame? Is it Steam's fault you don't have a good internet? No, it's really your own fault and in certain cases, the country you live in. :shrug:

And the notion of Steam charging monthly fees is absolutely ludicrous. I mean really? Got any sort of information or source or ANYTHING to back up that claim? No, I didn't think so. :rolleyes:

Oh and rabish, here's a cheers for you. :foodndrink: Only person in this thread actually using their gifts of logic and reasoning. Keep it up man. :toughninja:

I have the internet right now, yes. That does not mean that I will have it available when travelling with my laptop and want to install a game I purchased and have on physical media.

Ya can't take your laptop to the local starbucks and use their wifi? And if you are abroad, what's wrong with going to the local internet cafe? Even in the poorest countries in the world, there is bound to be at least ONE internet cafe around with wifi. Hell, I was in Nicaragua two years ago, and I saw a couple internet cafes. (Nicaragua is the second poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.) Not to mention the fact that you are traveling, is gaming really a necessity then?

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:59 pm

My first 'contact' with Steam was with Fallout NV, I was shocked how good it was downloaded and ready to play in like 20 minutes or less, got the updates straight away, could still play even when my internet connection was down . Not having to worry about my offspring using the DVD as a frisbee or having to have a disc in the pc is a major plus!
I was worried that maybe mod's wouldn't be possible but thats not been the case at all.
As for the game engine,gamebro's been fun,but it's past it's sell by date now, I'm sure Skyrim will be awesome,looking forward to it !

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:26 pm

I'm all for Steam too.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:55 am

The idea that Steam prevents piracy seems to me to be unproven and largely speculative.

That's not the point at all.
Piracy can't be prevented. Steam is largely loved and has an exponential growing community not cause it prevents piracy, but cause it actually offers a quality service.
Unlimited downloads, offline playability, achievements, a fine working friend list with good community functions, cloud-stored save file and settings, good deals, insane sales, etc.
Plus, it's THE giant of digital delivery market, so it's very, very improbable seeing it running out of business.

The only thing I don't like about it is that it doesn't let me choice the path for installing games, it always goes for a standard subfolder of the Steam Client.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:24 pm

Completely disagree. Even a shoddy port would still technically be playable - there are DRM solutions that prevent even that (see: Ubisoft's current system). DRM can definitely be one of the biggest concerns with a PC game.

Do you really want a game that you have to describe as "technically playable"? I sure don't...

And yes, Ubisoft's DRM was an utter failure and some people had trouble playing some of their games at times during their launch (Assassins Creed 2 for example). However a very very very small percentage of games that use DRM have ever been anything close to unplayable, or broken because of said DRM. Again this goes back to the point that a lot of bugs/glitches in games get blamed on the DRM.... when often the DRM has nothing to do with it. Not to mention gamers have a tendency to exaggerate, or out right lie about their experience with things they don't like in order to make their point sound a lot better.

So again, worrying about DRM (unless you don't have the internet... that would be a problem) is pointless. Far more games in history have been unplayable, or undesirable to play because they were terrible ports then games that were unplayable/broken due to their DRM.

Then from a modding point of view looking at all that is done to Morrowind and Oblivion - up to and including altering the exe on them - Steam would offer hassles on updates with that. Plus since when is virtual ownership real ownership?

I use Steam and buy bargain games on it, but I don't consider any of them the games I will mod or want to mod.

Modding games on Steam is no more a hassle then modding games not on Steam, and that includes Elder Scrolls/Fallout games. Don't forget, Source games are some of the most moddable games ever (if not the most moddable), so Valve certainly wouldn't make Steam unfriendly to modders. Yet again, people need to stop building such firm opinions (that they state as facts) about something THEY HAVE NEVER USED. Why don't you actually buy a game on Steam and mod it... you'll see that your statements are 100% false.

Oh, and for good measure... when you buy a game in the stores, you don't actually own it any more then you do when you buy it on Steam. What you buy is a contract that lets you play the game... try reading the EULA that you sign when you install the game.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:52 am

Steam does not prevent piracy, it never has... In ways it makes it easier... the GFWL was not forced and you never needed to go online... plus the EXE to just launch the game was so nice, only needed to bust out the CD when you needed to change settings.... and then the FOMM dropped with built in DLL and settings i never needed the loader program again...

Sadly like many have said in the thread the forced consumption of "Steamworks" is why some (me included) will never get to play Fallout: New Vegas on the PC

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:17 am

The idea that Steam prevents piracy seems to me to be unproven and largely speculative.

Steam does not prevent piracy, it never has... In ways it makes it easier...

I suggest you read http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html. It provides numerous examples of how DRM helps prevent piracy and it provides a few examples of what happens when a game is released without DRM. In particular, this page of the article (under "Copy Protection & DRM Don't Work" provides a logical anolysis of why DRM does work.

The reason devs use Steam is to stop Day Zero piracy, which it does due to the encryption of game files before release. Now the Xbox 360 version of games are getting cracked and thrown on torrent sites days before the PC version, which is a significant breakthrough and could sway many potential pirates to buy the game rather than wait a few days after release for it to be cracked. I would love it to be DRM free, but even then I'd buy it on Steam since I have many friends who use the community features.

I can't exactly see how the Xbox version getting cracked before the PC version would help sales, I imagine it would just encourage pirates to steal the console version rather than waiting for the PC version. I do agree that waiting a few days can cause some pirates to buy the game out of impatience.

I have the internet right now, yes. That does not mean that I will have it available when travelling with my laptop and want to install a game I purchased and have on physical media.

Ya can't take your laptop to the local starbucks and use their wifi? And if you are abroad, what's wrong with going to the local internet cafe? Even in the poorest countries in the world, there is bound to be at least ONE internet cafe around with wifi. Hell, I was in Nicaragua two years ago, and I saw a couple internet cafes. (Nicaragua is the second poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.) Not to mention the fact that you are traveling, is gaming really a necessity then?

Besides this, why would you even want to install a game while you're travelling, as opposed to installing the game while you're still at home?

While I'm mentioning the article, I might as well also mention that the http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_10.html mentions solutions that both gamers and gaming businesses can use to reduce the need for DRM. It basically boils down to this:

Developers & Publishers

# Release more demos. Demos are becoming rarer these days, and this provides an excuse for piracy. Of course Crysis had a full demo for example and was still pirated to the tune of almost 1 million copies in 2008 alone, however a demo released before the final game will help some legitimate purchasers avoid the temptation of day-zero piracy, help manage user expectations about the final game, spread valuable word of mouth legitimately, and also help identify major bugs earlier, leading to quicker patches.
# Make copy protection and DRM methods clearer on game boxes and on game websites. Also publish a link to a page detailing the hardware with which the protection is incompatible (e.g. SecuROM & known DVD drive incompatibilities). Aside from deflating claims of a cover-up, this also allows customers to make a fully informed purchase and lowers support costs.
# Publish realistic minimum and recommended specs. Too many people assume that minimum specs are sufficient to play the game at low settings, when in reality minimum specs are usually sufficient to only barely run the game in an unplayable manner. Recommended specs should be published to a standardized level across all games, e.g. 'Below is the recommended hardware to achieve an average of 30FPS at 1280x720'.
# Provide a toll-free tech support line for DRM-related issues. It's completely unreasonable for legitimate purchasers to have to pay several dollars a minute to call tech support regarding issues that are no fault of their own, such as SecuROM disc check failures and known drive incompatibilities. Emailing tech support on these issues is also a complete waste of time due to vague stock answers, so email support also needs to be shored up.
# Stop delaying releases by region. Releasing games earlier in some regions is probably the single biggest incentive for people to pirate a game and contribute to day-zero piracy. Releasing games with different protection methods in different regions also allows pirates to simply attack the weakest link to achieve a working crack. For example the TAGES system in STALKER: Clear Sky went uncracked for two weeks after release, however the Russian StarForce version of the game's executable - which was released three weeks earlier in Russia - was cracked and used as a working crack for the non-Russian versions upon their release. So release all games globally at approximately the same time, and unify the protection method if you're serious about slowing down day-zero piracy.
# Lower prices on digital distribution. Instead of making sure that digital copies match retail copies in an effort to protect retail distribution, accept the transition to digital distribution by lowering prices to realistically reflect the lower costs, potentially increasing sales due to the greater convenience at a lower price.

Consumers

# Reduce piracy. This article has demonstrated the potential impacts of piracy, so while I have no doubt that most people will just ignore it and continue to pirate games anyway, if you don't want the PC to become just an MMO and casual gaming platform, try to buy most of your games if not all of them. If a game is crappy, there's a simple solution: don't buy it and don't pirate it.
# Stop making excuses for piracy. Not just your own piracy, but also the piracy which others commit and openly brag about, and which piracy sites promote through misleading propaganda. Stop helping them to justify it with made-up facts and regurgitated misinformation which you don't truly understand, such as claiming SecuROM is spyware. If you aren't fully across an issue, either research it properly before making a comment, or stay quiet. Don't blindly support piracy just because it's the popular thing to do.
# Drop the DRM hysteria. Work with developers and publishers to provide verified and rational feedback on problems you genuinely believe are related to DRM so that they can rectify the issues, either through patches or workarounds, and of course to prevent these issues in newer versions of the protection systems. If all else fails, don't buy games which have problematic DRM, but don't pirate them either - this sends an unambiguous message to the games companies that all demand for their product - both legitimate and illegitimate - is falling.
# Don't blindly support Steam. Steam is a good digital distribution platform, but at the moment Valve has an effective monopoly on digital games distribution. In the absence of a real competitor, prices will remain high and Valve will have no incentive to pressure publishers to both lower digital prices and remove redundant DRM on Steam-protected games.
# Support small innovative developers. To counter the constant run of gradually lower quality franchise games such as the Need for Speed and Sims series, reward small developers who innovate and take risks with their own money - buy their games. Everyone loves to be seen saying supportive things to small developers, but data and anecdotal evidence from the developers shows that in private people pirate the hell out of these games, especially those without any DRM. Put your money where your mouth is.

This is just a sample of the types of things consumers and producers can do if they really want to improve the situation in PC gaming and prevent the death of their favorite genres - unless of course your favorite genres happens to be MMOs and casual games, or you own a console, in which case you have nothing to worry about... for now.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:18 pm

Steam does not prevent piracy, it never has... In ways it makes it easier... the GFWL was not forced and you never needed to go online... plus the EXE to just launch the game was so nice, only needed to bust out the CD when you needed to change settings.... and then the FOMM dropped with built in DLL and settings i never needed the loader program again...

Sadly like many have said in the thread the forced consumption of "Steamworks" is why some (me included) will never get to play Fallout: New Vegas on the PC

So you are arguing against Steam, which is a very fine and efficient service, and praising the most crappy platform around, GFWL? Is it a joke?

Ok, maybe you just don't know what are you talking about, so I will point to you some reason why GFWL is crap:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/09/15/frabjuous-day-no-more-gfwl-in-40k-games/#comment-510913

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:54 am

sure hope for a Steamfree PC option, otherwise I'm out.

I would hope that Beth would want more than just the the Steam community as a customer/fanbase

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:44 pm

Steam is a very good distribution service, with automatic update and bargains, plus I can find some games in there I just don't see in shops anymore, like Kotor and physchonauts. I don't really look it as a DRM, though it is used as such. However, I don't really see a franchise that has a good history like Elder scrolls really needing any DRM. People who have money to buy will do so if the game is really good, otherwise, franchises that have earned the reputation of being crap will just be relegated to torrent downloads, heck even consoles have a form of piracy. Uber cheapskates hell bent on a free ride will have the patience to wait for the pirated copy. Bethesda has done a good job with Morrowind and Oblivion, the elder scrolls series in general I believe, even with its flaws. So they can release the retail DVD with something as basic as just a cd-check and view steam as an extra channel for distribution.

The only reason I would be against a Steam only release is because the broadband infrastructure in my country isn't advanced and so downloading gigabytes worth of software would take from a few days to a little over a week. If I pay now, I should be able to play it just as soon.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:47 am

Steam is a very good distribution service, with automatic update and bargains, plus I can find some games in there I just don't see in shops anymore, like Kotor and physchonauts. I don't really look it as a DRM, though it is used as such. However, I don't really see a franchise that has a good history like Elder scrolls really needing any DRM. People who have money to buy will do so if the game is really good, otherwise, franchises that have earned the reputation of being crap will just be relegated to torrent downloads, heck even consoles have a form of piracy. Uber cheapskates hell bent on a free ride will have the patience to wait for the pirated copy. Bethesda has done a good job with Morrowind and Oblivion, the elder scrolls series in general I believe, even with its flaws. So they can release the retail DVD with something as basic as just a cd-check and view steam as an extra channel for distribution.

The only reason I would be against a Steam only release is because the broadband infrastructure in my country isn't advanced and so downloading gigabytes worth of software would take from a few days to a little over a week. If I pay now, I should be able to play it just as soon.

Exactly, I'm not against a Steam option just a full Steamworks requirement on on all PC versions.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:20 pm

People who have money to buy will do so if the game is really good, otherwise, franchises that have earned the reputation of being crap will just be relegated to torrent downloads, heck even consoles have a form of piracy...

Nothing could be further from the truth. According to http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html of the article I have been linking to, the author is of the opinion that less popular games are pirated less than more popular games, which actually is a logical conclusion.

Near the bottom of the article, there is a table showing the 10 most pirated games of 2008 (Fallout 3 and Far Cry 2 even made the list with 645,000 and 585,000 downloads respectively even though they were released only 2 months before the list was created). None of the games on that list are unpopular. In fact, most are some of the most popular games of 2007/8. And to top it off, right below that table is mentioned http://kotaku.com/5435876/report-the-most-pirated-games-of-2009 which reports that the most popular game of 2009 was also the most pirated (Modern Warfare 2).

...Uber cheapskates hell bent on a free ride will have the patience to wait for the pirated copy.

True, but the thing is that not all pirates are like that. I imagine that a significant number of them are people that just want to play the game, which means that they will only pirate something if piracy is the first means of acquiring it or if a pirated version is released soon after it goes on sale.

EDIT: @Rabish12
Incidentally, are you the same person that pointed out an AvP pirate http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13608994#post13608994?

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:42 pm

It seems that the people who are arguing against steam are either:

1) Not informed enough of steam.

2) Complaining about needing to go online (once).

3) Saying it does not prevent piracy.

You all do realize that you only have to get on the internet (and it could be some lousy crappy connection too) once to activate and you NEVER, EVER have to get online again right? (just hold some shred of a connection for under a minute and your good)
Also saying you don't like it because it doesn't stop piracy doesn't make for any substantial argument on the matter.

EDIT: When you buy a retail disc that requires steam, you only activate it through steam. It still installs from the disc and thus a good broadband connection is not required because you are NOT downloading anything from the internet.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:55 pm

Steam does make it easier for the developers to tell if someone has a legit copy if they request customer support. Didn't Pete Hines say that 30-50%(might be off) of people wanting support actually had pirated copies? What a waste of time for them.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:53 pm

We have like two different steam arguments going on.... should probably just stick to one thread. :shrug:

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:18 pm

I don't really think that it will require steam as if it did you would need internet connection and some people don't. Steam is pretty stupid but DRM won't really be a major problem.

The amount of people without an internet connection that do own a PC powerful enough to play Skyrim is so ridiculously low this isn't a valid complaint.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:28 pm

Nothing could be further from the truth. According to http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html of the article I have been linking to, the author is of the opinion that less popular games are pirated less than more popular games, which actually is a logical conclusion.

Near the bottom of the article, there is a table showing the 10 most pirated games of 2008 (Fallout 3 and Far Cry 2 even made the list with 645,000 and 585,000 downloads respectively even though they were released only 2 months before the list was created). None of the games on that list are unpopular. In fact, most are some of the most popular games of 2007/8. And to top it off, right below that table is mentioned http://kotaku.com/5435876/report-the-most-pirated-games-of-2009 which reports that the most popular game of 2009 was also the most pirated (Modern Warfare 2).

True, but the thing is that not all pirates are like that. I imagine that a significant number of them are people that just want to play the game, which means that they will only pirate something if piracy is the first means of acquiring it or if a pirated version is released soon after it goes on sale.

EDIT: @Rabish12
Incidentally, are you the same person that pointed out an AvP pirate http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13608994#post13608994?

Nice article, and you're right popular games do have higher pirated download counts. But it does go on to mention that the number of pirated download does not necessary equate to a lost sale. The DRM is placed to encourage people buy an authentic copy, or rather to discourage piracy to a degree. Now it is true, some people will pirate if an is option presented, but you can't assume that everyone who has downloaded the pirate copy has the capability or even intention to buy it in the first place. It's a matter of whether it was really a lost sale or one you'd never get regardless, http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/01/judge-17000-illegal-downloads-dont-equal-17000-lost-sales.ars and also within the very article you mentioned, not all downloads counts as a lost sale. That is not to say that piracy is acceptable by any means, as it does incur some loss. I guess businesses have deemed the cost of licensing and developing with the DRM in mind to be worth the cost. But to put so much importance on the DRM and to make so draconic seems inapprorpriate (this is more of a hit to ubisoft than steam, DRM on steam by my experience in unnoticeable and I never had any trouble with it).

What I'm saying is, Bethesda doesn't have to worry so much about loss of sales in piracy, because a lot of us who love their games will buy it, heck I bought fallout 3 nearly a year before I built the system to play it with. Oblivion only had a CD check as their DRM and it still enjoyed great sales, the same for fallout 3. Furthermore, before Oblivion became available on steam, it was sold as standalone retail DVDs.

I'm guess what I'm trying to say is that, I think steam shines not from its DRM capabilities but rather because it's a great service and distribution channel.

@mysticstryk, to add to the list of pros, steam also allows backing up of game files. Should your harddisk die or you carelessly reformat, you can restore from backup instead of having to redownload again, heck, just copying your steam folder works just as well. The gripes about the need for a decent broadband connection comes from when the retail DVD (with steam integration) is nowhere to be found. Although that may be more the fault of local distributors.

Hmmmm, I feel I'm starting to go off topic here, I apologize.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:23 pm

Nothing could be further from the truth. According to http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html of the article I have been linking to, the author is of the opinion that less popular games are pirated less than more popular games, which actually is a logical conclusion.

Near the bottom of the article, there is a table showing the 10 most pirated games of 2008 (Fallout 3 and Far Cry 2 even made the list with 645,000 and 585,000 downloads respectively even though they were released only 2 months before the list was created). None of the games on that list are unpopular. In fact, most are some of the most popular games of 2007/8. And to top it off, right below that table is mentioned http://kotaku.com/5435876/report-the-most-pirated-games-of-2009 which reports that the most popular game of 2009 was also the most pirated (Modern Warfare 2).

That is interesting information, however, it can not be a valid point of argument in this discussion for one simple reason.

It does not include the number of those downloads were by people who already owned or later bought the game.

While it may seem silly, once you downloaded the game, why buy it, but it is actually very common for people to download games to demo them, just like people do for music.

So at face value, the 645,000 downloads of Fallout 3 might seem like a loss of $32.25 million, unless you can account for those that already owned or later bought the game, you are basically providing nothing but incomplete information. Leaving out important information necessary for an accurate deduction of the situation.

» Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:39 pm

The amount of people without an internet connection that do own a PC powerful enough to play Skyrim is so ridiculously low this isn't a valid complaint.

This is completely Not correct, you should read http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2010/04/19/hear-that-knocking-sound-its-pc-gaming/ article.

PC gaming is still just as dominant as console systems by a wide margin, and there is no indication that this is going to change. The PCs are getting smaller in size, desk-tops are staying about the same.

I'm sure Bethesda does market research in serious places like this when they make the determination on what platforms to support - the PC will Always be dominant because they make the game on a PC and the REAL RESEARCH (as linked in by the article) tells us all that it is smart to do so.

PCs forever!

Miax