Concerns and misgivings about Talos : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:30 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the name "Tiber Septim" also used by all three of them as well? That's why it's used to describe Talos as mortal, because most people probably don't realize he was three different people and, because, it's just easier.

Worshiping Talos, worshiping Tiber Septim, same thing.

» Mon May 07, 2012 4:51 pm

OP you say that its like Tiber Septim the man had no flaws. Then you probably have never read the real Barnziah or forgot that he made a 17 year old elf girl pregnant than had the unborn baby killed.

If that's not a big character flaw nothing is...

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:44 am

OP you say that its like Tiber Septim the man had no flaws. Then you probably have never read the real Barnziah or forgot that he made a 17 year old elf girl pregnant than had the unborn baby killed.

If that's not a big character flaw nothing is...

Or that he betrayed pretty much all of his friends. Or that he sold POWs into slavery. Or his burning hatred for Orcs.

Granted, none of this leads to his downfall, but he wasn't a tragic character, this isn't a tragic story. But, like Chap said, when he ascended to take Shezarr's spot - he changed. Something about looking down on Nirna with his new father-eyes filled the old back-stabbing bastard with great love and compassion for his old imperial subjects, his children.

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:11 pm

So, according to Lore, the god Talos is all that's holding the world together? This does not sit well with me for several reasons, which I'll elaborate:
1. In some texts, it's implied that Talos is preventing the kalpa from restarting (somehow). Yet what isn't explained is why he's prolonging the kalpa. Why not, as the Greybeards say, let the world be reborn?

If it is Talos/Shezarr that's stopping the world being reborn, then by incapacitating Alduin, you're doing Talos' work. With that being said, it may be stated that the Last Dragonborn is prolonging the kalpa by killing the World-Eater. Remember that Talos has lost a ton of power since the White-Gold concardat.

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:47 am

I don't even see what the big deal with Imperial propaganda is. It's not like the Empire is using a Goebbels-like propaganda machine to inspire constant violence against all elves and enemies of the Empire. I don't even see it as being maleficent. It's just the Empire's shot at religious standardization.

It's mostly because in Oblivion that was the only side presented, and combined with how Cyrodiil and its inhabitants were depicted in that game....it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when Lore goes on to paint White Gold Tower, Talos, or the Cyrodiilic Empire itself as being the super important metaphysical center of the entire [censored] universe. :down:

And The Mythic Dawn failed to provide a compelling counterpoint because the only Lore they had was the commentaries and Camoran's speech. And since said speech had some errors regarding Planes, everybody just dismisses Mankar as a deranged madman. So that means there's no counterbalance to the saccharine Imperial point of view, since the only opposition are shallow card-carrying villains.

» Tue May 08, 2012 12:59 am

White Gold is just one of several towers, and Talos isn't automatically uninteresting due to his association with Cyrodiil.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:47 am

White Gold is just one of several towers, and Talos isn't automatically uninteresting due to his association with Cyrodiil.

It's not that he's uninteresting, it's that he's turning into a Mary Sue like Vivec. Or I should say Black Hole Sue since the world apparently revolves around him now and it will end if people stop worshiping him.

» Mon May 07, 2012 6:20 pm

Vivec? Mary Sue? What the hell are you playing and reading? And Talos ain't a Mary Sue. As Colussus mentioned, the guy was a giant dike in his life, with chronic backstabbing disorder. And the world revolves around him, the same way it revolves around Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan. Problem is, with a bunch of towers deactivated/destroyed, their presence is needed. Hurts that there is also a conserted effort to remove him.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:58 am

Mandatory homework reading assignment:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Relevant excerpt:

Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarTrek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process. There are dozens upon dozens of essays that offer interpretations of what the term means, generally basing it off of some usages of it, but none of them are truly comprehensive or accepted. Using the term in most contexts isn't too far off from http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlameBait, generally provoking the defendant into rants. Much http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternetBackdraft has resulted, especially if the term is applied to a canon character on a popular show.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:24 am

Oh good lord, dropping the TVtropes? You want people to discuss things, or get lost in Hermy Mora's library?

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:27 pm

Oh good lord, dropping the TVtropes? You want people to discuss things, or get lost in Hermy Mora's library?

If that is Hermaeus Mora's library, is Jyggalag's old library Wikipedia?

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:01 am

Oh good lord, dropping the TVtropes? You want people to discuss things, or get lost in Hermy Mora's library?

Speaking of TVTropes, take a look at the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim page, specifically the entry for Barrier Maiden. This reflects on how Talos is (or appears to be) getting out of hand.

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:26 pm

Aside from the love and adoration the nord npcs are throwing at talos, knowing they'll give a rats ass about talos if he wasn't a nord.

So is the part "Talos is the only thing holding reality together" a theory or proven so far? :laugh:

There are still other incarnations of lorkhan humans are worshiping...

Seems like the thalmor planned it far enough ahead to push ulfric into starting his rebellion. Could just as well conceived the plan when they've caught and interrogated him towards the end of the great war.

» Mon May 07, 2012 7:18 pm

Well...not really, Zeios. The biggest reasont to be rid of him is to eliminate mankind, and any ideas that ultimately trace back to Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan. To do this, Talos needs to go, for he keeps it there (and they were that close to stopping Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan)

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:43 am

Well...not really, Zeios. The biggest reasont to be rid of him is to eliminate mankind, and any ideas that ultimately trace back to Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan. To do this, Talos needs to go, for he keeps it there (and they were that close to stopping Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan)

Really, because it seemed more like an extension of Oblivion's "support the Empire/Cyrodiil or you're supporting the world-destroying demons" shtick. I'd rather let mehrunes Dagon or Alduin destroy the world than coddle those mudcrab-fearing blowhards.

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:23 am

Some people see the end of the world as a good and/or necessary thing. To me, those people need an axe in the face.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:16 am

Really, because it seemed more like an extension of Oblivion's "support the Empire/Cyrodiil or you're supporting the world-destroying demons" shtick. I'd rather let mehrunes Dagon or Alduin destroy the world than coddle those mudcrab-fearing blowhards.

Oblivion's mood and pacing were flawed, okay, but you're oversimplifying the situation.

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:09 am

Alright, but Cyrodiil at least deserves to be wiped off the map for failing to live up to its predecessor (and successors). If Red Year turned Morrowind into a burned wasteland, then Cyrodiil should've sunk into the ocean like Winterhold. It's not like Tamriel would lose anything valuable, just a soulless excuse of a province. Plus the newly created sea would create an excellent buffer against the Aldmeri Dominion.

(Before you protest, yes....I admit I'm still seething over falling for Oblivion's hype......so I'm taking it out on Cyrodiil for disappointing me)

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:44 am

Alright, but Cyrodiil at least deserves to be wiped off the map for failing to live up to its predecessor (and successors). If Red Year turned Morrowind into a burned wasteland, then Cyrodiil should've sunk into the ocean like Winterhold. It's not like Tamriel would lose anything valuable, just a soulless excuse of a province. Plus the newly created sea would create an excellent buffer against the Aldmeri Dominion.

(Before you protest, yes....I admit I'm still seething over falling for Oblivion's hype......so I'm taking it out on Cyrodiil for disappointing me)

This is all according to the Thalmori master plan. See, Weird Cyrodiil is still out there, pulsing with the flutter of moth-wings in the dark.

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:17 am

Talos himself in Morrowind says that the Empire is old and that it's time for something new. Stop connecting him directly to it. If anything, Skyrim has him more connected to Skyrim's culture. As does Talos propaganda. And 2/3 of Talos' soul.

And it has nothing to do with Cyrodiil, but Talos' connection with Shor. We've said this several times. That information comes from Morrowind, back when Cyrodiil was a jungle and was more interesting. It's how Hjalti went from a mere Dragonborn to a mythic replacement for that god, who is the devil that keeps the Altmer trapped in Mundus. Your also ignoring the connections to Wulfharth and Zurin Talos has.

Plus the newly created sea would create an excellent buffer against the Aldmeri Dominion.

Do you want the Dominion to win?

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:16 am

No, I want Cyrod and Thalmor impaled on a spear. Then I'll make it look like they're kissing while I set them on fire. It'll be fun.

» Mon May 07, 2012 8:45 pm

Dude, we get it, you don't like how Cyrodiil was presented. That's fine, most of everyone didn't like it either. Let it go, OB is over.

» Mon May 07, 2012 5:15 pm

So, according to Lore, the god Talos is all that's holding the world together? This does not sit well with me for several reasons, which I'll elaborate:

1. In some texts, it's implied that Talos is preventing the kalpa from restarting (somehow). Yet what isn't explained is why he's prolonging the kalpa. Why not, as the Greybeards say, let the world be reborn?

2. The Thalmor....now can you really be sure that their anti-Talos crusade is really for the purpose of "unmaking" the world when everything in-game points to them seeking dominion over Tamriel? It would make more sense that the Talos persecution is linked to Numidium and the siege of Alinor, since Talos only became a god thanks to the Warp of the West. And I don't recall any Thalmor agents mentioning a return to the Dawn Era.

3. And finally, let's assume that it is true and Talos is the cosmic keystone keeping the world intact. This brings up a very pressing question: Why the hell is Tiber Septim getting this Mary Sue treatment? It was bad enough that Oblivion practically painted the Septim dynasty as a line of Emperor Mary Sues who are the chosen ones keeping the world from being invaded by demons. Making the fate of the world hinge on the worship of Talos is not exactly an improvement over that level of bull****. And ever since I played Morrowind, I always interpreted Talos as being no different than Vivec, Almalexia, Sotha Sil, or Dagoth Ur.....just a ruler who achieved apotheosis.

1. Yes we don't know his reasons, but that doesn't mean his reasons aren't good. If I had to guess why he's trying to stop it I'd say it's for the reason that any of us would. He cares about the people who live on Mundus and he doesn't want to see them die and suffer if they don't have to.

2. I think unmaking the world, or at the very least freeing their people from it, is a very long term. Right now they just want to rule over the mainland. Oh and the ban on Talos worship is probably more about creating unrest in Skyrim than anything else.

3. Talos, or the people that make him up, were all aspects of Lorkhan and he is the very spirit of Nirn, so I suppose if you could kill him or at least get his divine spark out of mundas then it might become unstable.

With that said even Trinimac and Auri-El couldn't kill him, so I don't know how anyone else would go about doing it...

» Mon May 07, 2012 3:31 pm

With that said even Trinimac and Auri-El couldn't kill him, so I don't know how anyone else would go about doing it...

If all worship for Talos is removed and people forget about him then eventually he will lose all power and no longer be a god.

» Mon May 07, 2012 5:40 pm

If all worship for Talos is removed and people forget about him then eventually he will lose all power and no longer be a god.

I don't think so. Lorkhan hasn't really been worshiped throughout history and he's still here.