Concerns with a continuing trend in TES games : V - Skyrim

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:11 am

Let's add some facts to the "reduction in content".

Daggerfall had the most skills (35), followed by Morrowind (27), and then Oblivion (21).

DFSkills = Alteration + Archery + Axe + Backstabbing + Blunt Weapon + Centaurian + Climbing + Critical Strike + Daedric + Destruction + Dodging + Dragonish + Etiquette + Giantish + Hand-to-Hand + Harpy + Illusion + Impish + Jumping + Lockpicking + Long Blade + Medical + Mercantile + Mysticism + Nymph + Orcish + Pickpocket + Restoration + Running + Short Blade + Spriggan + Stealth + Streetwise + Swimming + ThaumaturgyMWSkills = DFSkills + Alchemy - Archery + Marksman + Armorer - Backstabbing + Block - Centaurian - Climbing + Conjuration - Critical Strike - Daedric - Dodging - Dragonish + Enchant - Etiquette - Streetwise + Speechcraft - Giantish - Harpy + Heavy Armor - Impish - Jumping + Acrobatics + Light Armor - Lockpicking + Security - Medical + Medium Armor + Mysticism - Nymph - Orcish - Pickpocket - Stealth + Sneak - Running + Athletics + Spear - Spriggan - Swimming - Thaumaturgy + Unarmored                    OBSkills = MWSkills - Axe - Enchant - Medium Armor - Spear - Unarmored - Short Blade - Long Blade + Blade

Daggerfall must be the best game since it has more skills (i.e., content). But, actually look at the skills that were lost and gained between games. Does anyone really miss the language skills like Centaurian? Or, is anyone really bothered that Pickpocket and Stealth were merged into Sneak?

I think most of the skill mergers and removals make sense and lend the system a nice balance (i.e., 3 skills per attribute except Luck). Because of this balance, I don't think we will lose any skills without gaining an equal number in future TES games.

When not counting minor factions (e.g., the Aundae in Morrowind or the Order of the Virtuous Blood in Oblivion), DF has the most factions, followed by Morrowind, and then Oblivion.

DFFactions = Fighters Guild + Mages Guild + Thieves Guild + Dark Brotherhood + Host of the Horn + Knights of the Dragon + Knights of the Flame + Knights of the Hawk + Knights of the Owl + Knights of the Rose + Knights of the Wheel + Order of the Candle + Order of the Raven + Order of the Scarab + Akatosh Chantry + Order of Arkay + House of Dibella + School of Julianos + Temple of Kynareth + Benevolence of Mara + Temple of Stendarr + Resolution of Zenithar+ Order of the Hour+ Knights of the Circle+ Order of the Lily + Knights Mentor + Kynaran Order + Maran Knights + The Crusaders + Knights of Iron MWFactions = Blades + Fighters Guild + Mages Guild + Thieves Guild + House Hlaalu + House Redoran + House Telvanni + Imperial Cult + Imperial Legion + Morag Tong + Tribunal Temple             OBFactions = Blades + Fighters Guild + Mages Guild + Thieves Guild + Dark Brotherhood + Arena

Daggerfall obviously must be the best game since it has more factions (i.e., content). However, if you have actually played all three, you know that's not true. In my opinion, Oblivion has the best faction quests when you actually compare them.

For example, compare the final quest in each Thieves Guild. The DF Thieves Guild has no final quest since all the quests are generic, the MW Thieves Guild has you killing the Fighters Guild leader, and the OB Thieves Guild has you stealing an Elder Scroll. Which quest out of these three seems most fitting to the Thieves Guild?

Overall, I prefer Morrowind to Oblivion but it's not because Oblivion has less "content". It's the type of content which is far more important than quantity. Oblivion's world was more bland and less quirky so I prefer Morrowind.

If quantity of content was the most important thing, DF would be the best TES game out of DF, MW, and OB but it's not....

You make some valid points, and I do agree overall that the quality of the quest lines in Oblivion were better than the previous TES games. If I gave you the impression that quantity was greater than quality, then I also apologize. That was not the intent. I recognized in the OP that Bethesda has made various innovations in the game play that are getting better with every TES (voice over, quest quality, combat, physics, graphics, etc). However there are also a lot of consequences to having such a controlled and focused system. Where does it end? What made TES so magical for me was that it was a fully realized and envisioned world. Morrowind in particular was really an MMO without other players (what they should be anyways). It was complex, it was expansive, it was highly customizable, and everyone could experience it and enjoy it differently. Oblivion felt a lot more controlled, a lot more empty, and overall just incomplete (it's still a great game, don't get me wrong). I'm not suggesting that Skyrim be the size of Arena or Daggerfall as that would be completely ridiculous. What I am suggesting is that Bethesda continue to do what they do, but not lose what made TES a legendary IP to begin with. This could easily be accomplished by having more developers and more funding. Which would not be an issue for Bethesda considering the success and revenue they have probably earned from Oblivion and Fallout 3 alone.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:04 am

Concerned about it, yes, but positive nonetheless.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:15 am

This is a conversation that has been had many, many, times in the ES General Discussion forum. I'm not at all concerned about the next Elder Scrolls game, because I think a) Oblivion wasn't nearly as bad as people say, and B) Bethesda has indeed learned from the flaws that it did have.

In terms of level scaling and creating unique content for the player to find, Fallout 3 was much stronger than Oblivion in that respect, so I'm not concerned about whether Bethesda is going to regress.

As for the amount of content, I would rather have 50 NPCs with totally unique dialogue, believable backgrounds, and interesting and unique quests to offer, than 500 copy/paste NPCs who all repeat the same dialogue, their only background is a generic blurb about their race/class, and quests that are all "go to [location], find/kill [target], come back for [reward/next quest]". I would rather have 3 sprawling, believable cities than 30 cities the size of Balmora or Chorrol. I would rather have 5 sets of armor and weapons, or 5 skills, that are all balanced, interesting, and fun to play with, than 15, some of which are incomplete, others are useless, and others are completely broken and unbalanced. I choose quality of content over quantity. I know that the Elder Scrolls games are open-world games, and that quantity will always be a factor, but I think Bethesda is trying to find the happy balance between the two. They may have overreached with Oblivion, certainly, but I think they're learning and their next game will be even better than Fallout 3.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:10 am

I voted No because I'm hopeful Beth has learned from their mistakes and made the game for their true fans - RPG lovers.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:31 am

I must say that I do not care so much ... They gave us construction set, and people make so much mods. Mods will add much more stuff that Bethesda never added and I am fine with that.

New engine, are we absolutely certain a CS will be released? There are many good reasons why modding should be supported but I'm sure there are several reasons why some would like to see it abandoned. I await definite confirmation.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:42 am

I'm not suggesting that Skyrim be the size of Arena or Daggerfall as that would be completely ridiculous. What I am suggesting is that Bethesda continue to do what they do, but not lose what made TES a legendary IP to begin with.

I assumed that you didn't really want to go back to the DF style (i.e., "[Brother/Sister], one of our clerics, a [cleric's description] named [cleric's name] has disappeared...") just so there could be an increase in content. After all, that would be crazy. Nonetheless, I thought the craziness of going too far in that direction needed to be pointed out.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:27 pm

... I choose quality of content over quantity. ...

I agree up to a point.

Spiked club or smooth club, my mage would never use a spiked club.

Straight sword, curved sword, long sword, short sword, I have little interest in the stats. Silver dagger with jewel encrusted hilt, leather glove and blue cloth glove, my interest is in how the items spark my imagination.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:30 am

Are you KIDDING? Games are optimized and optimized to squeeze out the best graphics possible on the consoles, which are still worse than what the PC is capable of without specific optimization BY FAR. If you just look at the PC hardware vs the Xbox 360 hardware...what is the Xbox graphics card? 256 MB? 512 MB? You can have graphics setups of several gigabytes on the PC, and 512 graphics cards are getting to the LOWER end of PC hardware.

Also, I'm pretty sure the PS3 and Xbox 360 don't have processors anywhere near as fast as i5/i7s overclocked which are becoming fairly common on PCs.

Anyway, I am scared that this series (TESV revived my basically dead interest in games for a little longer) is going to follow the same trend as every other good game series has in the past few years from awesomeness to total crap by removing the complexity and making it a [censored] action / graphics show with no depth or GAME. (which is the same thing that happened to movies...sort of. Strange.)

Graphically there is a difference between pc and console, but there is no need to take anything else out of a game to make it playable for a console is my point, do they change things to make it playable on consoles, of course they do, they have completely different setups, but dont say consoles cant compete with a pc, thats just laughable as they are doing just that and winning, a pc can have parts changed out fairly often to keep them high end, so is a smarter investment in terms of long term usage, but consoles are generally cheaper and easier to use in the short term, and are built with an eye for the future, so have very good hardware from the get go, so more people buy them, I have an xbox360 and a computer I built myself, so I see the differences, but they are not so different graphically that I feel the need to buy most my games for pc, and alot of the differences people whine about has more to do with the engine running the game then what they had to do to make the game run on a console, not a question of pushing it processing limits.

Before some1 remarks on it yes I know my writing ability svcks, probably why I am a simple Engineer.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:14 am

I don't want to see the leveling system from Fallout. I like the resting and being able to make sure I pick the right options. This would be less of big deal if there was a skill reset option for us 360 players.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:03 pm

Biggest let down in Oblivion IMHO: Factions...the fact that they are so few in number in Oblivion in comparison to Morrowind is a tad depressing. That out of all things adds replayability to a game for me, seeing other sides and questpaths etc, etc.

» Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:22 pm

I assumed that you didn't really want to go back to the DF style (i.e., "[Brother/Sister], one of our clerics, a [cleric's description] named [cleric's name] has disappeared...") just so there could be an increase in content. After all, that would be crazy. Nonetheless, I thought the craziness of going too far in that direction needed to be pointed out.

Fair enough, and the clarification is definitely wanted. I just believe there were a various amount of variables that made Oblivion feel empty and in complete in comparison to Morrowind. I definitely don't want Bethesda resetting the clock, but they definitely have a variety of expectations to uphold.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:33 am

Biggest let down in Oblivion IMHO: Factions...the fact that they are so few in number in Oblivion in comparison to Morrowind is a tad depressing. That out of all things adds replayability to a game for me, seeing other sides and questpaths etc, etc.

Definitely. I was so looking forward to being the Knight of the Imperial Dragon in Oblivion... :sad:

But I guess you could argue you sort of do being the Champion of Cyrodill?

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:21 am

They have to choose between quantity and quality look at daggerfall who big that was I'm not saying it wasn't quality but as technology evolves they have chose one or try the difficult task of mixing it

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:29 am

I love TES, in all its incarnations. Oblivion was a spectacular game, and I anticipate Skyrim will be, as well.

» Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:21 pm

Well, the better the graphics are, the less content you can put in. Either we have the most extensive ES game ever and it looks like Morrowind, or we have a game on a lesser scope that looks better than Oblivion. Hopefully they found a way to make it look great and add the depth that the older titles had.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:41 am

I think people tend to be way too harsh on Oblivion.

Of the TES games, I've only played Morrowind and Oblivion (sorry, Arena and Daggerfall.. I'm a console person anyway, but I just can't get into them. Sue me.)

And of those two, I like Morrowind more. However, it's not by a landslide and I still think both are great games.

I'm pretty sure we can expect greater visuals, greater gameplay, better animations and better looking characters. I have plenty of faith that Bethesda looked at their fan's views of Oblivion and is going to try to implement what they can. Am I expecting the game to be perfect? No, cmon that's just stupid. However, I think we can expect a game that will take some of the best qualities of Oblivion, and some of the best qualities of Morrowind, and combine them. And that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Skyrim turned out to be the best game of the series yet. Not saying I expect that to happen, just saying I wouldn't be surprised.

Now, if it turns out to be a total flop, well then.. yeah, I'll be done with Bethesda from now on. But I am seriously not worried about it at all, I think they'll produce a great game with this one. I think we can tell from Shivering Isles alone, that they know we want a better environment. Throw in a better leveling system, better graphics, better animations, and more depth, and there you have it, the next great chapter in the ES series.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:32 am

They only had 6 months on final hardware with Oblivion, that's why Fallout 3 did a lot more technically than Oblivion.
Skyrim will have been developed entirely on final game hardware.
Also Todd Howard said that Skyrim would feel like the next generation console, and that it would be a bigger step up technically from Fallout 3.
And Betheda doesn't mess around with rumours, speculations, and doesn't brag about something unless it's true.. *cough* Peter Molyneux *cough*

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:38 am

Although the trend has been set and all, I really hope it ends. With all the info going about on the Internet out to Bethesda I hope they make better choices on what can and can't be cut from a game. Still we don't know what will be in Skyrim so I can't very well say if they will fix it or continue it. Am I worried, not so much because they still make good games even if they are a little gutted from the last go around. Now if on the off chance Skyrim svcks then I will just stop buying Bethesda games.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:24 am

I'm not too worried that Bethesda will let us down and certain that they will improve from previous games as does every developer. What that entrails is still conjecture but overall so long as they don't try make a world that would be considered "shallow" and lacking in any real depth then I won't really complain. Sure I may want some things changed but the developers can hardly cater to every little niche in the gaming market and please everyone. Perhaps a middle ground can be reached where most hardcoe fans would be pleased but not be a abyss (eve comes to mind) turning off new comers to a great series. Besides its still too early to form a opinion having very little infomation on the game. Overall I'm going to just wait and hope that Bethesda will come through for both its long time fans and any newcomers to a series that atleast goes beyond what much of the gaming market consist of in terms of "depth".

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:32 am

Currently Daggerfall is my favourite TES game.

There's just something about the atmosphere they created with it, and I could customize my characters so much that it felt much more like a real person.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:26 am

While I will say game play (...) has improved substantially and even led the way for a lot of games, I feel this may be the only positive feature coming from new TES titles.

LOL

Gameplay IS the game, bud.

No, I don't think they will be reducing the amount of skills. And if so, it would only be by 1 or 2 and for good reason. Believe it or not, Bethesda knows what they are doing when it comes to making games. I could've done without Oblivion's reductions in skills, but I can understand why they did it (Medium armor was really not all that necessary in Morrowind).

less space to travel in (while Oblivion was bigger than Morrowind, most of Oblivion was a forest)

Oblivion's rendering of Cyrodiil was true to lore, and a realistic beautiful fantasy environment that was much larger than Vvardenfell. Morrowind was mostly ash... remember? Mostly forest > mostly ash.

And if anything, I'm biased towards Morrowind... maybe even liked it better than Oblivion (you never know with nostalgia in the mix though). Just being realistic here, no need to blow things out of proportion.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:31 pm

Oblivion had me worried, but Fallout 3 got my hopes up again. They fixed a lot of issues I had with Oblivion.

Of course, it was clear their level scaling still needed some work (for the most part, however, it was acceptable) and they needed for focus on questing content. There were like, what, 30 quests in Fallout 3? However, that probably more had to do with the length of those quests (for instance, Moria's quest took ages to do, since there were multiple parts within multiple parts).

I want a good mix of quality and quantity. Some will continuously spout "Quality over quantity!" without thinking about it. Is quality enjoyable without the quantity to make the world feel alive? That's what Oblivion felt like for me. It just felt empty at times. Fallout 3 did as well (and not just because it was a barren wasteland). I think some of that, at least with Fallout 3, stemmed from the lack of settlements. Morrowind had a good mix of cities and villages, as did Oblivion (although I wish it had more villages than it had cities).

I could've done without Oblivion's reductions in skills, but I can understand why they did it (Medium armor was really not all that necessary in Morrowind).

A skill is only as necessary or useful as the developers will put the effort in to make it.

Wonder why people said spears were useless? Because the devs never bothered to MAKE spears useful! There was like...one good legendary spear in the game, and its max damage was a pitiful 60-70 or something like that.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:10 am

I am very concerned about this, and if this continues in TES 5, I will never again buy another Bethesda game. Period. I hope they take the very small amount of things that were actually improved in Oblivion, namely combat and graphics, and further improve them, while revisiting the things they lost in Oblivion but made Morrowind such a deep and complexly engaging experience.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:07 am

LOL

Gameplay IS the game, bud.

No, I don't think they will be reducing the amount of skills. And if so, it would only be by 1 or 2 and for good reason. Believe it or not, Bethesda knows what they are doing when it comes to making games. I could've done without Oblivion's reductions in skills, but I can understand why they did it (Medium armor was really not all that necessary in Morrowind).

Oblivion's rendering of Cyrodiil was true to lore, and a realistic beautiful fantasy environment that was much larger than Vvardenfell. Morrowind was mostly ash... remember? Mostly forest > mostly ash.

And if anything, I'm biased towards Morrowind... maybe even liked it better than Oblivion (you never know with nostalgia in the mix though). Just being realistic here, no need to blow things out of proportion.

Gameplay is a major component of the game, but it is not SOLELY the game. RPGs aren't just another FPS, especially open-ended RPGs such as TES. I will agree that an aspect like medium armor was probably irrelevant, really that's more of an issue of how it was implemented though. But I'm talking more along the lines how Morrowind felt complete as a game and Oblivion did not. This is probably due to new technology, only having the hardware for 6 months, and variety of other issues. However, it does not change the fact that Morrowind was still a more fulfilling game than Oblivion was.

Also mass and size are great. I am a huge advocate of exploration. But exploring is irrelevant if there is not something intriguing worth searching for. Oblivion level scaling (my other thread) killed exploration more so than helped, and overall hurt dungeons. The environments were beautiful and definitely one of the best aspects of Oblivion. But again, there was really no point in exploring them, because there was really nothing to find. I don't want this game to be Morrowind. It has been done already and that game is a master piece. But, I do believe even though Oblivion was also a great game, it lacked a lot of fulfillment that Morrowind had and I don't want to see that in Skyrim.

» Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:25 am

I don't understand why people are claiming that Oblivion was a 'failure' or a complete 'flop'. It won countless awards and was GOTY for many gaming publications. It sold well, made Bethesda a profit, which is why they repeated the formula with Fallout 3. And guess what? The same thing happened; people LOVED it. Again, it won many awards and it also received GOTY accolades if I'm not mistaken. That's why I think it's a mistake to consider these games 'failures' because they were astoundingly successful, and it's reasonable to assume that Bethesda will continue that trend with Skyrim and other games. Yes, both games had their flaws, and if Bethesda are smart they will focus on making sure such drawbacks won't appear in Skyrim. But I would expect things like fast travel, objective markers, streamlined weapon and armour sets, (shudder) level scaling and their leveling system will appear in the next game.

That being said, all I want in Skyrim is diversity. Diversity of landscapes, of weapons, of armour, of voice actors. I know I said I expected otherwise, but I can still hope...