First of all, I actually like a lot the new system and I think it solves some of the old problems. But, after some time of thinking, I say that I don't like too much the elimination of atributtes, not for a matter of game mechanics, provided that the game can work with them, but for a matter of realism. Yes, I know, this is a game, realism is overrated and there are dragons and magic. But, however, a role-playing game attemps to offer us a world where we can role-play a character, pretend to be him, and TES motif is something like "you are what you do", so if I use a lot of Destruction magic, I improve at it, just like if I do handstands everyday, I improve at it. The system aim to be natural. Now, here comes the problem: if a person fights a lot with axes, he will master axes and he will be a killing machine with them (skills), but, if after mastering axes he decides to take a claymore, though he will not fight very efficiently with it, he is now more muscular and is better using it than someone that have never used either an axe or a claymore,

There is a mod for Oblivion which I love: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13879. Basically, what it did was "allowing skills to contribute a small amount to related attributes as well as their primary attribute." You didn't have to micro-manage to get 5+ anymore. What you did affected directly to your atributtes, and luck depended on Infamy-Fame. It allowed another thing: although it was still there, it got rid of a concept that I think is overrated in today's RPGs: level. There wasn't jumps, you didn't have to wait until level up to increase your atributtes. It felt natural and simple. Then, Perks and all of that could be added, and let them determine more than everything else, but... why eliminate atributtes if they have sense?

Another thought I would like to share is about perks. I like how Bethesda are doing them, but, inspired by my brother, if I had to make a game I would include them in other way. Do you remember how in Oblivion if you advanced in certain skills you were able to do new moves, or forget about your armor's weight? Well, that would be a part (although I would like something... wider than in Oblivion). II would make two kind of Perks: some dependant of in what skill do you advance (if I use a sword a lot, I would learn new moves and be able to wield the weapon more efficiently, or if I use a fire spell a lot it would make more damage, or increase it Burning damage, or distance) and others dependant of what you do (if you kill, let's say, lots of spiders, you learn better and better where you have to atack so you gain a bonification when fighting that creatures, or if you have robbed to lots of people you gain a bonification to Sneak).

I repeat that I like how Skyrim is going to cover this, but I will miss atributtes... and sorry for my ortographic mistakes, that I'm sure there are (I'm not a native speaker).

about the first thing you describe, i think health will make you stronger, magicka make you smarter and stamina make you faster/swifter. im not sure but i guess thats how it'll work

Concerning the thing you said about the different types of perks...
Many of the perks in Fallout 3 required you to be of a certain skill/attribute level so it is relatively likely that that may return.

It will be interesting to see how thy manage without attributes but I'm sure it will be just as good. It was probably due to the same kind of reasoning that led to them removing skills; they don't want to limit you too early or have it significantly more difficult to be a stealth character if you want to play an orc.

Well-written post OP. I think you summarized the issues very fairly even though I am probably slightly more against the removal of attributes than you. Skyrim seems more 'You are what you choose at level up' than the traditional TES concept of 'You are what you do'.

That makes sense. I hope I won't miss atributtes!



Yeah, that's the problem I find. Although even in Oblivion and Morrowind, it wasn't so "you are what you do" as I would have liked, that's why I installed Realistic Leveling (that, in addition, removed the tedious neccesity of micro-managing what I did). I wish Bethesda found a way to replace atributtes for perks, but remaining true to their motif. If there are logical limitations at the hour of choosing perks, that would solve part of the problem. It was like that in Fallout. But, again, some issues that I have mentioned would still be there, I'm afraid.

I think that's the biggest conflict on the subject of perks here, as well. Wisel suggested that we have automatic perks based on what you do. That's a good idea, but I also like chosen perks as well. I think the "you are what you do" philosophy doesn't need to extend to perks. Beth seems to be doing a hybrid of Wisel's suggested system and Fallout's system, where, say, your high Blade skill means you can choose a Blade perk, but you still decide what sort of perk that is. For example, if I'm playing a character who, when using Sneak, sneaks around enemies instead of going for Sneak criticals, I don't want a perk that makes it easier to get Sneak criticals or makes them more effective, but I might want a perk that allows me to run without a Sneak penalty or that makes the weight of my boots irrelevant.

And I use nGCD. Another automatic system that increases attributes depending on skills without any leveling window. I also use Skill Decay which will decrease skills when they're abandoned. And AnyClass which will change my class on my play style on the fly.(I am ready for Skyrim for a long time. +thanks tejon!)

If skills are affecting attributes automatically then it can be seen both ways where attributes affect skills. Todd Howard said attributes will be still there in other forms. Now a racial bonus can manifest itself as in skills, perks or 3 main stats. So for my perception there won't be any difference. Attributes were very passive and with nGCD they are even more passive so removing them from the equation makes a lot of sense. Your choice of leveling mod should also bring similar experience?

I hope you're right!

Thanks for a well written post. I completely agree.

I at least hope they add perks that are not bound to skills.

How you describe the mod you use sounds very similar to the one I use. The only thing I hope is that atributtes are still there in some way, because... you know, if I have fought a lot with a claymore and now I'm strong, then, if I take a one-handed swords I should be able to use it better than a pure mage that, one day decides to take a sword.

They may all be bound to skills, but some of them may have multiple, but optional requirements, for them.
For example, there may be a perk that increases your melee damage by X%. This perk could be taken when your 1-handed, 2-handed, or unarmed skills reach a certain level. With around 280 different perks (although some are just higher levels) I am fairly sure these things are covered.

I love everything I've seen and heard so far.

Well, my vision of perks is quite specific, so if you Sneak, you get some bonification to sneaking itself, not to criticals when sneaking. If you make critical while sneaking, you get a bonus to criticals when sneaking. Anyway, it's not a very developed idea, as you can see.

I would also like to have some perks not depending on skills, wether related to stuff like Mining or Woodcutting or as a reward for a quest; for example, let's take the example of the Grey Prince's quest. Instead of advancing in some skills once you have finished the quest, you would gain a perk, thanks to his training. Things like that appeared in Fallout, so hopefully, we'll see them in Skyrim.

I can't say how I feel about this change... The reveal only raises more questions, and whilst I can't judge it till they release more detail, it seriously sounds like, dare I say, "Dumbing Down" of the game if removing attributes has not been doen in conjunction with a whole heap of other changes to game systems to rebuilt the layers of effect that attributes had on gameplay.
The reveal that attributes are gone only has me more confused. Sure there is Health, Fatigue and Magika, but how does everything else work now?

Some questions I need answers to now...

- What will enchantment of items look like? Many gear sets I used in previous TES games had attribute boosts for different situations, Like Luck jewelery for arena betting, or strength jewelery for haulling loot from dungeons back to town.

- For that matter, what happens to all the indirect attributes like encumberance and melee damage (STR), Magicka Regen speed (WILL), Bow Damage (AGI), Gambling / Random influence (LCK), Dialogue options and Merchant Prices (PER), Movement Speed (SPD)...??? Some of these were affected in no way by skills.

- Will there be equivalent potion/poison effects and restoration/destruction spells for attribute secondary effects???
e.g.
I use to use damage attribute poisons to reduce their speed and hence slow their approach, ranged absorb speed spells could be used to aid kitting.
Absorb luck spells to debuff ALL the enemies skills and buff ALL my own skills at the same time.
Absorb Strength spells were a great Restoration aid for melee types, debuffing the enemies melee damage and buffing your own in one cast.
Fortify Attribute potions could provide a great buff to combat damage and versatility for non-mages to affect their characters.

- How will food/alcohol affect our characters now? Most effects in previous TES games were to your attributes...

- Are diseases being removed or will they now affect a character in some other way, previously nearly all diseases were attribute damage effects, so as to reduce your skills, health, movement speed, encumberance, etc... Havving Disease debuff specific skills does not really make alot of sense.

You could be right ~but I think its absurd.

Give you an example... Imagine an Imp/or demon that naturally has loads of free Magicka, but isn't too bright (only cunning) ~you can't right?

Imagine an orc mage who has spent years building up the ability to repeatedly cast what he knows how to, but just cannot seem to grasp the more powerful and complex spells ~again you can't.

Imagine a minotaur, or even an Atronoch; bristling with endurance and Stamina... slow but unstoppable ~but you can't, because a high stamina would mean they both run like rabbits.

(The same could be said of a musclebound hero; able to hold up a horse for 10 minutes... but this means he's just as fast as a 95Lbs sprinter who can run flat out for 10 minutes.)

*Merging is bad, it always has been. It makes Mc-Manikin placeholder characters instead of unique persons.

Cookie-cutter PCs are bad for RPGs (even if there are ten different styles :shrug:). Perks (originally) were designed to bend the rule ~not to be the rule.
(Personally I think its just a way to get away from numbers. )

Personally I find it impossible that there are not hidden attribute as such. In the G4TV interview, Todd said that they eliminated the go between, but I imagine that raising your strength is akin to raising your endurance which is akin to raising your fatigue. Working with axes makes you stronger so you can swing more as evidenced by greater fatigue which will carry over to claymores. I think that greater fatigue will also mean greater carrying capacity etc.

you got a point there. if it only works that way for the player it would be better