Confessions of an Oblivion Hater : V - Skyrim

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:06 pm

I totally agree, though I'd call it depth rather than fluff. I liked Oblivion, but honestly I would have been more impressed if it came from a different studio, because BGS has a strong history, and has earned high expectations.

One of my biggest issues is that Cyrodiil was portrayed as a generic Western European fantasy. They could have cherry-picked from real history to spice it up if they wanted to go that route, but instead they streamlined the culture and setting into a bland mush. The whole setting, chivalry, religion, society, etc. was like a B-movie production where the writers didn't bother to do real research and just merged a bunch of half-remembered ideas they'd heard about Medieval Europe. Combine that setting with simplified black hat/white hat story and quests, level-scaling, the compass, and many of the other design decisions and it's a recipe for disappointment to returning fans. It's also natural to want to lump it together into a grand dumbing down scheme--like an Asian or Indian restaurant that Americanizes their food because they're afraid of scaring away timid customers (and thus losing the interest of the foodies who'd be their biggest fans).

I don't actually think that's what they were trying to do, but I do think that's how a lot of fans felt. There is an over-developed sense of entitlement on the forums, and I think Oblivion was a better game than some give it credit for, but BGS titles have high expectations, and they've earned a lot of trust from players, so it's not that surprising for people to feel and express disappointment when BGS switches direction.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Oblivion wasn't really a bad game. I did feel it necessary to download numerous mods to fix my issues with it while I played Morrowind the first couple of times without anything like that and loved every second. Oblivion was a disappointment and I really hope Beth learned from their mistakes. It takes great effort to create a gem with the kind of depth Morrowind had.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:33 pm

Title of this thread turned me off, sorry. It's a shame too, since you make some good points for improvements in Skyrim.

Exactly, I don't understand why some people have to point out in every single thread that they hate oblivion.

I for one did enjoy oblivion, yes it was a different kind of fantasy setting as it was less "dark" - I still find it unique in every way, a general improvement over Morrowind. Sure some stuff could've been different, but that's why most of us use mods.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:04 am

well OB was not horrid, but it felt rushed and needed heavy modding for sure, especially 3 years after release, it did not age as well as MW to be honest.

all in all I'm not so much unlike you but skyrim is a 1000% buy for me, and if I can get my hands on a collectors edition (if they make it) I will do that.

so far the game seems to be nothing less than epic, they revamped the combat/magic/stealth system which for me is the most important thing in the game.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:39 pm

After a glance I have to disagree with these points. Logging farming and mining is rather a waste of time. It's an RPG why focus on developing an economy and job that slaves would work at when your just adventuring through. I mean if you bought the game you pick up a sword start questing then decide you want to hang up your sword and work in mines with chained beastfolk slaves, not a very enchanting story arc there. You're already set up as a unique person (dragon born) with a destiny to persue that other stuff is a very boring time sink.

Oblivion most all the quests were politics and intrigue. The main quest was both, fighters guild was practically all politics falling apart losing membership and a unfit leader, a little intrigue thrown in from the blackwood company. I could just go on and on about how much politics and intrigue Oblivion had.

Despite how much I enjoyed oblivion and that id probably consider myself a bit of a devoted fan, I completely disagree with you.

The very example you gave shows why there wasn't intrigue or real politics. If I wanted to participate in the fighters guild quest line I had to be a bit of a cliche hero. Intrigue would have been if I could have actually supported the black wood company.

As for boring time sink,i love the freedom that offers. One of the things in all of my favourite games is the open world non linear options.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:17 pm

All TES games have advantages and disadvantages, I cant say about hating since I love them all for their features, but no need to remove interesting features thats was in previous games, if something was flawed thats can be fixed not removed completely.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:56 am

I hope Skyrim trumps them both into obscurity.

Hehe me too. Skyrim is going to rock. :happy: Much as I love OB and have gotten so much enjoyment out of it, I hope Skyrim is beyond comparison better.

That said, this thread really doesn't serve much purpose, its just an different twist on the "reasons why I hate OB" threads we've been seeing forever from those who can't let go of a very dated game at this point. Face it folks, MW hasn't aged well and many of its concepts just don't fit with modern gaming. Give it a rest.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:34 pm

I have to admit that I disliked Oblivion for many...many reasons. There's no sense getting into all of that now, but I just have to say that I never thought in a million years that Bethesda would take my (and many others) complaints about Oblivion's direction seriously. Shivering Isles and Fallout 3 improved on it in a lot of ways, but I still had my doubts.

But so far I've seen more positive information from Bethesda than I have negative, which leads me to believe that they really did incorporate a lot of the criticisms that Oblivion took from the Morrowind fanatics (I happily admit that I dislike Daggerfall, but not with the passion I hated Oblivion with). So indulge me in listing all the ways that Skyrim will improve on Oblivion's shortcomings from my perspective:

1) Perks have the potential to make character progression the deepest of any Elder Scrolls since Daggerfall, even with only 18 skills

2) Carriage system (immersive travel option) combined with Fast Travel, best of both worlds, we've been asking for that one for years, since the earliest TES:V ideas and suggestion thread. Very happy to see that in today's IGN interview.

3) Handcrafted world/dungeon content. This is a big one. My biggest complaint for Oblivion fell in this category. I hated the randomized world. I was shocked to learn Oblivion had only one dungeon designer for the whole game. I'm so glad Skyrim will have 8, and I feel like exploration will be as interesting (even more so) than in Morrowind. This goes hand in hand with the feeling of culture in the world.

4) Rebalanced level/loot system. This one goes without saying. Fallout 3 really did do it better

5) From what I've been able to gather, the quest compass is either gone or will play a much reduced role in Skyrim. This is another huge one.

6) Verisimilitude. Oblivion didn't have it. Skyrim appears to. Things like logging, farming, mining playing a role in an active game-world economy. Morrowind had many egg-mines and farms but not a genuinely functioning economy. Skyrim will appear to build on that. Oblivion only had a handful of farms, no functioning mines or forts, and no trade routes...strange for the capital province.

7) Adhering to the lore. 7,000 steps. No radical departures like with Cyrodiil's jungle.

8) Politics and intrigue. Oblivion didn't have it. Skyrim appears to

I still have some concerns. Namely what will happen with the PC interface, how factions will be handled, and minor things like levitate, and how the new in-game books will be handled...but overall I'm very pleased with what I see. I just want to take a second and thank Bethesda for sticking true to its fans. Skyrim is definitely on my "to buy" list...especially after other, more recent disappointments...

I can only agree with you, I too was hugely disapointed with oblivion... the only major flaw still left unfixed so far is the lack of armor customization in OB... buuuut we'll see

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:31 pm

I feel sorry for people like the OP who let parts of a game ruin their overall experience because you really robbed yourself of alot of enjoyment from Oblivion. I loved all of the elderscrolls games and enjoyed them alot despite any flaws. Currently I am playing both Oblivion and Morrowind at the same time and they both have major flaws. Yes Morrowind has major flaws and Oblivion did approve on alot of things from Morrowind although you wont ever here that in there because heaven forbid one criticize precious Morrowind. Oblvion's major flaws come from the fact that it was the first game in the series that targeted console gamers (whether you like it or not they are a huge demographic). In this process the developers went a bit too far and made it too hand-holding. Luckily the developers have learnt from their mistakes and Skrym will be somewhere in the middle with some great improvements over both games. This last article is a good indication of that.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:06 pm

@ OP:

Both,morrowind and oblivion had good and bad points. I love them both the same. Morrowind just brings back great memory's,from the title music,main quest,the items and armour etc. It was my first elder scrolls experience. I'd never played a game that svcked me in ,in such a way. The freedom,the exploration,the lore,the items,i'd never played a game like it,and it became my favourite game ever. Then oblivion came along. That too became my favourite game along with morrowind. It svcked me in just the same,but because morrowind was my first elder scrolls game,i just have a little more of an attachment to it. What you have to remember about oblivion is: They ( bethesda ) like fresh ideas,new direction etc. Some things in oblivion didn't work out,or weren't as accepted as they thought. But they also improved alot of things with oblivion,no doubt about it. You also have to remember,oblivion wasn't just targeted to old elder scrolls fans,it had to gain a newer and bigger audience too,and they did it. Oblivion is the best selling elder scrolls game,it sold alot of copies.

Now,because they have the attention they deserve,and have got a bigger audience,bethesda can now afford to please both older and newer fans.I believe morrowind was more complex to get into,but i didn't mind that,oblivion was easier in that respect.But skyrim (while having it's own flavour) can afford to be more complex,lore deep,darker etc,because the audience is there now.
It's getting the balance right,they have to please those that got svcked in with oblivion,while pleasing those that were there from the beginning/or played the earlier games,and i think skyrim will do just that.

To say your an oblivion hater is annoying to me. But your entitled to your opinion,but it wasn't as bad as some make out. Some people even slated the main story,or were annoyed martin was the hero ,in a way. But if you look at the announcement trailer for skyrim and some of the events,oblivions story/main quest makes more sense......wouldn't you agree?

PS: Thankyou for the link to the interview,it was a decent read.

.....considering it's IGN

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:37 am

you wont ever here that in there because heaven forbid one criticize precious Morrowind.

This just made you another one in a long line of people using this terrible strawman argument to discredit people who honestly think OB was a huge disapointment It's not about what OB DID improve on over Morrowind, because sure that's fine and done with, but we're talking bout what we want IMPROVED from OB, which indeed happens to be some features that was removed Morrowind --> Oblivion... I am so sick of these kinds of statements, because guess wha OB had some major flaws that actually did ruin the experience for some of us.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:03 pm

A question to the OP, what did you want to get out of this topic? Because I can agree with you that Skyrim is going to be fantastic and that Bethesda are including good elements from both Oblivion and Morrowind. Due to the title however, most people have come to this topic to compare Oblivion and Morrowind... not Skyrim.

You raise good points but your title has made this topic into another Oblivion Vs Morrowind argument.

Also to people who have responded to the argument, you could argue all day but in the end its unlikely you will change anyone’s opinions on what elder scrolls game they like. Ill just say that I am looking forward to Skyrim and think it will be an improvement over all past games, but that doesn’t make those games bad.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:22 am

This just made you another one in a long line of people using this terrible strawman argument to discredit people who honestly think OB was a huge disapointment It's not about what OB DID improve on over Morrowind, because sure that's fine and done with, but we're talking bout what we want IMPROVED from OB, which indeed happens to be some features that was removed Morrowind --> Oblivion... I am so sick of these kinds of statements, because guess wha OB had some major flaws that actually did ruin the experience for some of us.

Wow, you are pretty naive if you think that is the basis of people's anti - oblivion posts. This just made you another one in a long line of people I feel sorry for...people who focus on only the negatives so much that it ruins their overall experience.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:34 pm

Wow, you are pretty naive if you think that is the basis of people's anti - oblivion posts. This just made you another one in a long line of people I feel sorry for...people who focus on only the negatives so much that it ruins their overall experience.

He didn't say he focused only on the negatives. It's clear that what he means is that the negatives ruined the experience for some. I feel sorry for you, jcote23, who is so blindly insistant that people who disliked Oblivion are all wrong because they do not conform to your judgement. This is an opinion subject, Oblivion was ruined for a lot of people, you need to get over that.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:37 pm

Wow, you are pretty naive if you think that is the basis of people's anti - oblivion posts. This just made you another one in a long line of people I feel sorry for...people who focus on only the negatives so much that it ruins their overall experience.

Not naive, I just happen to be one of the people you so happily dismiss based upon your own opinions.

Oh so no matter how bad something is, you gotta enjoy it fully because else you're "focusing on the negative"? terrible reasoning. Is it SO hard for you to accept that a lot of people actually took legitimate issue with OB?

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Not naive, I just happen to be one of the people you so happily dismiss based upon your own opinions.

Oh so no matter how bad something is, you gotta enjoy it fully because else you're "focusing on the negative"? terrible reasoning. Is it SO hard for you to accept that a lot of people actually took legitimate issue with OB?

Honestly, it's hard for me to imagine anyone disliking so much about Oblivion that they can't play it but also liking Morrowind without letting their personal bias toward Morrowind come into play. Yes, Oblivion was very different and I can completely understand thinking Morrowind did it better, but I can't see viewing Oblivion as a terrible game on its own when you liked Morrowind. They're not so different.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:52 pm

Honestly, it's hard for me to imagine anyone disliking so much about Oblivion that they can't play it but also liking Morrowind without letting their personal bias toward Morrowind come into play. Yes, Oblivion was very different and I can completely understand thinking Morrowind did it better, but I can't see viewing Oblivion as a terrible game on its own when you liked Morrowind. They're not so different.

They are very different in a lot of areas, even if they are the same type of game. And I can see someone not being able to enjoy the game. Personally I was hugely disapointed, but OB is nonetheless an above average RPG by far. But this doesn't change that a lot of the flaws ruined the experience for me to a certain extend, and certainly not a worthy successor to MW

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:41 pm

Not naive, I just happen to be one of the people you so happily dismiss based upon your own opinions.

Oh so no matter how bad something is, you gotta enjoy it fully because else you're "focusing on the negative"? terrible reasoning. Is it SO hard for you to accept that a lot of people actually took legitimate issue with OB?

Infernal - I apologize for including you in my generalized statement, but not all have your reasoning for criticizing OB. Its not hard for me to accept that people took legitimate issue with OB. I took the same issue with it, I just didn't let those issues ruin my overall experience with it and still enjoy playing it today despite those major issues.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:36 am

What a thread title...

You know what I'm thinking.

You're probably thinking about how mad you are that someone actually haves your favorite game in the world, Oblivion.
The thing is, a lot of people hated/disliked Oblivion. :) I'm one of them. Morrowind>Oblivion in every regard pretty much for me.
I agree with the OP on pretty much every point.

Honestly, it's hard for me to imagine anyone disliking so much about Oblivion that they can't play it but also liking Morrowind without letting their personal bias toward Morrowind come into play. Yes, Oblivion was very different and I can completely understand thinking Morrowind did it better, but I can't see viewing Oblivion as a terrible game on its own when you liked Morrowind. They're not so different.

Just because it's "hard for you to imagine" doesn't mean people don't actually feel that way, because they do. I'm one of them. Oblivion was a terrible game, especially when compared to Morrowind.
But that's just my opinion.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:56 pm

Infernal - I apologize for including you in my generalized statement, but not all have your reasoning for criticizing OB. Its not hard for me to accept that people took legitimate issue with OB. I took the same issue with it, I just didn't let those issues ruin my overall experience with it and still enjoy playing it today despite those major issues.

Thank you for apologizing, shows a good character

. And yea, I admit that some people are def jumping on a band wagon with regards to the OB hate. But some people value some stuff higher than others, and some may have seen the stuff removed / made worse in OB has some of the most important elements... I know I really hated the removal of armor custmization and the terrible Level scaling.. I never ment to say that I didn't enjoy OB at any level, but the fact that I often had activeily supress my disapointment in some of the features really took away from the enjoyment :/... I fully acccept some people may enjoy the OB expeirence more than MW, but I honestly do not think OB is anywhere nearly as good. What makes me happy though, is that Skyrim seems to address a lot of the major (and minor) issues people took with OB.. ofc it has raised some other issues (like the spell making thing) but personally it's a much ebtter trade off than we had with OB.. so I'm happy so far

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:20 pm

I won't say that I hate Oblivion, but I think the OP has the right to say he does if he wants. He didn't make this thread to trash the game, but to point out things that he thought were done wrong in Oblivion and how he is happy that Bethesda is addressing them.

The direction Oblivion went in was a direct reaction to problems people had with Morrowind. Despite that, I think they went a bit overboard. Fast travel and the compass give-aways were nice, but they undermined the best thing they had going for them - an open world to be explored. It's fun finding things on your own. Nobody likes it when you're playing a game and there's some guy over your shoulder telling you everything while you're trying to play. That's what Oblivion felt like constantly. Combine that with the major fumble of RadiantAI and ignoring the game lore that described a unique and interesting environment to instead create a generic fantasy environment was did make for a tough blow for the game.

And with Skyrim, the direction they will move from will be related to the reaction and problems players had with both Oblivion and Morrowind. I think we can expect a game which asks more of the player. If RadiantAI/Story work well, and the combat system is intuitive and effective for the player and the AI uses it well enough to keep it interesting, it will likely be a great game.

People shouldn't fret that other people don't like Oblivion. Despite the wording, the OP mostly just praised Skyrim's progress. Oblivion is no more sacred than Morrowind, and it's a little surprising that Bethesda seems much more willing to accept criticism than some of the players.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:46 pm

... and certainly not a worthy successor to MW

I understand that people have their own opinions, but tossing statements like this around when we already have a five year legacy of Oblivion players being referred to in the most derogatory terms is really not at all helpful. Do note that I'm not saying you personally said the latter, but there have been a lot of remarks ever since Oblivion's release week in, week out that are along these lines. I personally don't understand why the Morrowind vs. Oblivion thing still goes on unabated after all this time; all I do know is that it very nearly put me off playing Morrowind altogether.

I still hope Skyrim would provide a fresh start, but it seems that the Morrowind fans are still pushing their agenda with as much enthusiasm as ever. As someone who likes both games, I wish it would stop. That's not to say Oblivion is without its flaws, but that's seldom what these discussions appear to be about.

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:54 am

:stare:

Well, I think Oblivion improved upon nearly everything that Morrowind did. It wasn't the perfect game, but neither was Morrowind. And Skyrim won't be either, but I expect Skyrim to improve upon Oblivion too.

It's just asking for trouble to go into a topic as an "Oblivion Hater." It's frustrating just for me to hear that.

Pfff! Oblivion dragged the entire exciting, deep, complex and mystical aspects of previous elder scroll games right into the dirt. With its boring gameplay, and a boring world that didn't even fit the lore of the elder scrolls universe, I found oblivion to be a hollow game. If you think graphics and combat makes the game Well ok, you want a simple adventure/ action game ok play Oblivion. Oblivion improved on 2 things, combat and graphics. Everything else was either done 50% right ( Radiant AI ) or failed att everything like level scaling. So nearly everything improved from morrowind? give me a break -___- at least Morrowind had an 100 % handmade world full of wonders and deep political aspects to it. Along with the bloodmoon and tribunal expansion the world of Vvardenfell was superior by far!!

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:41 am

Oblivion is my favourite game of all time but as I suspected Skyrim will replace that spot

» Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:47 am

certainly not a worthy successor to MW

Haha... You know I've tried to play MW a few times, but the mechanics and the systems feel so archaic I barely get more than an hour or so into it before just saying "the heck with it". I personally am glad Beth evolved the game so much for the better with OB, truly one of my favorite games of all time (especially after modding it the way I want). I'd likely say that MW is certainly not a worthy predecessor to OB, but that would just be me being mean for no reason at all.

Skyrim looks to be taking OB and making it even better. Doubt I would even be on the forum following this game if OB had just been MW2.0.

» Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:30 am

Thank you for apologizing, shows a good character

. And yea, I admit that some people are def jumping on a band wagon with regards to the OB hate. But some people value some stuff higher than others, and some may have seen the stuff removed / made worse in OB has some of the most important elements... I know I really hated the removal of armor custmization and the terrible Level scaling.. I never ment to say that I didn't enjoy OB at any level, but the fact that I often had activeily supress my disapointment in some of the features really took away from the enjoyment :/... I fully acccept some people may enjoy the OB expeirence more than MW, but I honestly do not think OB is anywhere nearly as good. What makes me happy though, is that Skyrim seems to address a lot of the major (and minor) issues people took with OB.. ofc it has raised some other issues (like the spell making thing) but personally it's a much ebtter trade off than we had with OB.. so I'm happy so far

Yeah I think Skyrim will hit right on the mark. Just for the record I not one who thinks OB is better the MW, I just enjoyed them both for the games that they are. I just get a little frustrated when I see some biased posts. Some guy a little while ago made the comment that MW's graphics were better then OB...I mean come on. Like I said I am playing both OB and MW simutainously and it has brought to light alot of things lacking in MW that OB did improve on and it has made me appreciate OB more then when I played it back when it came out.