It was rather obvious from my post that it was a pure statement of opinion, so I do not in any way see how that attacks people who disagree with me, I just don't. A lot of people go on about of the MW fans "push their agenda" as you say. But why is that so suprising? I loved Morrowind, and I certainly see where Oblivion failed in it's potential, aswell as where it did indeed improve. Now there is a new game announced and everybody is trying to state their opinion on what they'd prefer the new game to be... so I really don't see why people take issue with the opinion tha MW happened to be a better game than OB in a lot of aspects.

It's not a "war" atleast not in my mind, it's just a matter giving putting in my thoughts while I wait for hopefully an awesome game, like everybody else here.


@Obstructionist

Sure, I'm not offended that you feel this way, just as I dont feel anyone should be offended by my opinion.. people turn these disagreements into way more than they actually are, and I'm sure I do tha myself at times.


@Jcote23

Hehe well I can see where one would come from saying that MW certainly had a better art style than OB, but better graphics is just as silly as saying MW had better combat, it didn't.

And..why should/would Skyrim be OBLIVION2.0?
Also, everything you've stated in this post is personal opinion. No fact.

That's why I was careful to say that I didn't see you personally attacking others; but I think the way an opinion is expressed can set the scene for those who do: even in this thread we've seen some comments that are somewhat disparaging, and my point is that from some quarters there is unfortunately a history of elitism that provoke more heat than light. My point is that unfortunately, comments like "not a worthy successor" may be pure opinion and harmless in themselves, but they set the scene for others to interject with comments bordering on flaming, at least in my experience.

From my perspective I like both games and I think both have faults; it took me a while to understand some of the gripes about Oblivion but I soon realised what the complaints were about and felt them myself. But I didn't learn anything from people who simply said it was dumbed down for casual gamers and worse, who were just irritating; unfortunately they seem to have been the loudest voices.

My point is that an opinion will carry more weight if it dissociates itself from that baggage, hence some of the objections to the thread title: unfortunately, however valid the points, it just serves as a reminder of the worse elements of the MW vs. Ob debate.

I'm not saying I always get it right because I often don't, but in general terms I'll try to say "I prefer this" or "I don't like that" rather than "x was awesome and y was not" because that will tend to get people's backs up.

Confessions of an Oblivion lover:

I love Oblivion with every fiber of my being and consider it my favorite game of all time. That being said, I also completely and totally agree with the list in the OP.

I do however have a problem with the title... The phrase "Oblivion Hater" is quite divisive and is almost certainly bound to start some sort of flame war.

Well like I said, that makes no sense to me. It wasn't a completely different game, and I just don't understand what it is you liked about Morrowind that makes it possible to consider Oblivion to be a terrible game. I can see it if you don't like Action RPGs or things like that to begin with, or if you only play FPSes and don't like fantasy, but if you liked Morrowind and thought Oblivion was a terrible standalone game, it doesn't make sense to me.

Again, I can accept thinking it's bad compared to Morrowind, but bad on its own just doesn't work for me.


Well I completely disagree with everything you said. It was not boring, the world was not boring, to this day I can play Oblivion and run into something new and interesting happening on the road from point A to point B. In Morrowind, it's the same thing every time I pop it in. Yeah, there are definitely more scripted things on Morrowind's road that are interesting, but once you've seen them, it's done. I've played 600-700 hours of Oblivion and only 500 of Morrowind, and I've had Morrowind a good 4 or 5 years longer than Oblivion.

It also TOTALLY fit into the lore of TES. If you think it didn't, then I just have to say you're wrong. The events of Oblivion were even backed up by the events of Morrowind, the story couldn't happen without Morrowind. People always complain "Cyrodiil didn't have lush forests!" but no, sorry, it did. It's set to scale and couldn't just be one big giant forest, that would be boring, same as Skyrim won't be one giant snowy plane. Cyrodiil had forests.

Radiant AI was 50% done right? Well, okay, that's 50% more than Morrowind had. The AI is one of the biggest improvements over everything. Morrowind AI just stands there and does nothing and waits for the player all day. Oblivion AI actually makes me feel like I'm in a living, breathing world where people are not just waiting around for me to talk to them.

Also, combat is the meat of the gameplay. Improving on combat already makes it a huge improvement to the overall game.

This.

If you don't like Oblivion, fine. That doesn't make it bad. Bethesda wasn't trying to make Morrowind 2 when they made Oblivion. And thank GOD, they aren't making an Oblivion 2.0 for Skyrim. The win of the elder scrolls is that each game is different. Oblivions better in some aspects and worse in others, but that is heavily based on opinion. Over the years I have argued for and against both games, but no ones standing has changed. So its time we talked about what features we like and dislike about Skyrim.
The only two legit claims against Oblivion are Level scaling and the setting, thats it,

While I actually agree with what you're saying, I dont see the example you used, the not a wortthy succesor thing, as something I'd put in that category... I don't think my opinion the matter could've been said in an any more neutral way, because I really don't think it is. There will always be room for flamers to attach themselves to, say, my opinions, but let em, they're not representing me, so I dont take issue with that either... but I said I said, there is no reason to white ones opinion in a negatively loaded way.. which I'm sure I've done many times ^^

@X_death Mostly agreed, but stating opinions is not about changing the minds of the other person, it's about putting it out there for everybody to see, including the devs. THat and, I personally find it enjoyable to discuss these things because I'm a major nerd ^^

Oh and saying there is only two "legit" claims against OB is just as much opinion as anytthing else, some may say there are 100, some may say there are none.

That last statement you made pretty much concludes my point as to why I think Oblivion was a horrible game compared to Morrowind and even Daggerfalll.
Combat is not the meat of the gameplay, and hasn't been in ANY GAME EXCEPT OBLIVION. Instead, the "meat of the gameplay" was the rich atmoshphere, the lore, the personality of the characters.
Oblivion is an action adventure game through and through, a hack and slash. That's why I hate it compared to Morrowind. Morrowind was an RPG. Nothing more, nothing less. A true, great RPG.
I don't care whatsoever about "radiant AI" or how the NPC's in Oblivion had "schedules". The personalities of every single NPC in Morrowind had 10x more personality and depth than the NPC clones in Oblivion. It was a joke. The script writers for dialogue in Oblivion were atrocious. Morrowinds text based system gave it so much depth and personality. THAT is what matters. Not shiny graphics.

Velorien [/quote]



Well I completely disagree with everything you said. It was not boring, the world was not boring, to this day I can play Oblivion and run into something new and interesting happening on the road from point A to point B. In Morrowind, it's the same thing every time I pop it in. Yeah, there are definitely more scripted things on Morrowind's road that are interesting, but once you've seen them, it's done. I've played 600-700 hours of Oblivion and only 500 of Morrowind, and I've had Morrowind a good 4 or 5 years longer than Oblivion.

It also TOTALLY fit into the lore of TES. If you think it didn't, then I just have to say you're wrong. The events of Oblivion were even backed up by the events of Morrowind, the story couldn't happen without Morrowind. People always complain "Cyrodiil didn't have lush forests!" but no, sorry, it did. It's set to scale and couldn't just be one big giant forest, that would be boring, same as Skyrim won't be one giant snowy plane. Cyrodiil had forests.

Radiant AI was 50% done right? Well, okay, that's 50% more than Morrowind had. The AI is one of the biggest improvements over everything. Morrowind AI just stands there and does nothing and waits for the player all day. Oblivion AI actually makes me feel like I'm in a living, breathing world where people are not just waiting around for me to talk to them.

Also, combat is the meat of the gameplay. Improving on combat already makes it a huge improvement to the overall game.
[/quote]



The world was boring in my eyes, Anvil was veryvery nice though one of the things I really liked, along with the dark brotherhood. Cyrodiil was supposed to be a vast jungle region, did you see any jungle? I did not. Another thing is that in a province like cyrodiil and the imperial city it should have been allot more deep political aspects the AI was a joke! annoying yellow faces with 3 topics to share with the player does not make it a better game. Neither do stupid conversations amongst the npc's. MAN: did you hear about the mudcrabs? MAN 2 : Goodbye.

I agree with the OP. Oblivion was the the "Crystal Skull" of the Elder Scrolls. A decent enough game in its own right, but certainly not good enough to bear the TES name.

But the one thing people have to keep in mind is that it was the setting that dictated the style not something the developers did. Morrowind was in Morrowind, a province dominated by dark elves, so the culture, arcitecture etc had elvish influence, so it was more dark, more fantasy, it made sense there was a town built into the trees. Oblvion was set in Cyrodil, the capital provice, an imperial provice, so the culture, economy, arcitecture was more polished and refined and human based. It made sense that the beast races were more humanlike and that everything was human influenced. It made sense that were wasnt a town built into the trees. Unfortuanly this turned alot of people off as it made the game seem too generic and less fantasy, but it was the setting that did this not the developers (although they did pick the setting, lol). Again, I'm not saying I liked one over the other, I just enjoyed them both for what they were. I can understand how some like the style of MW better, but MW style in OB wouldnt have made sense to me. Skyrim's style will be great, less polished, gritty, plus due to the elvish and nord past there will be alot of history and lore involved (which OB lacked over MW).

To be honest, I probably have a bit of a hair-trigger about this sort of thing by now anyway which is just as much a contributor if not more so. Which is probably what I was getting at as much as anything else, but in my usual roundabout way where the point was lost! Most people are actually entirely reasonable about this sort of thing, I think it's just that noisy minority that cause a few unnecessarily frayed nerves...

People here need to get their panties out of a bunch...

Stop talking about what does or doesn't matter or what makes a good or what makes a game bad... It's all relative.

Morrowind and Oblivion were both great games. Different, but great in their own ways.

If you want to continue whining about Morrowind and Oblivion, go do it in the Elder Scrolls Series Discussion threads. These threads are supposed to be about Skyrim...

Oblivion did alot of good changes,and you say it doesn't fit lore either.....your wrong!.....It fits with what happened in morrowind,and also see the announcment trailer for skyrim,alduins wall etc,it fits well. Morrowind was a classic game,but not perfect,oblivionh is a classic game ( to me ) again not perfect. Oblivion was done on new gen hardware,with a fresh approach and new ideas,some worked,some didn't.It was also made in mind to target a bigger audience. As good as morrowind was ,it's not wise to just cling to that line of thinking,things change. Would you feel the same way if you played oblivion first...and be honest?

How long did you play oblivion?

I remember a post from while back about someone pissing and moaning about oblivion. But then said they'd played about a 1000 hours on it....thats laughable to me,how can you say you hate/dislike a game then play it for 1000 + hours,it's a joke.

@ Shinovahkiin: "oblivion was a terrible game" Thats your opinion,it wasn't terrible at all,sales suggest that,it was huge....each to their own,but to say it's terrible,well,it's a bit over the top.

I don't think anyone expected a Morrowind art style for OB, since, as you said yourself, the setting itself is way more generic fantasy setting. However there are more interesting ways of doing it than OB did. The Witcher is a fairly good example, as it's also set in a fairly generic fantasy setting. The difference between the witcher and OB is partly that OB's style is soo overly glowy and makes everything so cheerful and shiny, even dead people. But said I'm happy to say that it feels as if SKyrim is way more gritty and dark in the overall feel, which I am quite happy with


@Esbern Yea and SKyrim just happens to not be out yet, and OB and MW just happens to be games in the same series, it is entirely relevant to discuss which aspects of the two (or even further back to daggerfall) games were and good and would be great to see in Skyrim. What good are forums for an upcoming game, if not for discussing what features you'd like to see?

First off, I have not said anything about graphics in my entire argument so I don't know why people keep bringing it up. Graphics made no difference on my opinions of Oblivion or Morrowind.

Second, I have to disagree. Combat was the meat of the gameplay in Morrowind and in Daggerfall. Daggerfall even starts you off running around fighting and killing things. Maybe what you enjoyed most was the atmosphere, lore, and personality of characters, but I don't think that changes the fact that the main focus of the game involves fighting and killing things. It's an Action RPG series. I was in combat just as frequently in Oblivion as in Morrowind, I fought and killed things an equal amount of time between both games. But actually, I'd say I spent more time talking to NPCs and in cities and things like that in Oblivion than in Morrowind.

Beyond that I think our arguments just come down to personal preference. I see more depth and personality in Oblivion characters, whereas most Morrowind NPCs just feel like stationary clones to me.

I'd also like to mention that overall, I like Morrowind better than Oblivion, but it's purely for subjective reasons. I like the atmosphere of Morrowind better than Cyrodiil and the story is more interesting to me than that of Oblivion. It's hard to match how cool Vivec and the Tribunal are, and Dagoth Ur is an awesome villain. But none of that takes away from Oblivion for me and I still see a ton of improvements and in general, I have a much easier and more fun time roleplaying in Oblivion than I do in Morrowind, and that's what brings me back.


As opposed to Morrowind's 20 topics that you can ask to ANYONE and get the same exact response. And the conversations amongst the NPCs...oh wait, there weren't any. No one talked to anyone except you.

nah if the Developers of Oblivion STUCK TO LORE and weren't so focused on including a larger crowd oriented to shooters and hack and slashes Oblivion would have had.



2 distint Cultures that are blatantly obvious, Nibenay who wore facial tatoos intricatly influenced by south-southeastern provincal cultures, and Colovians largely rough and tumble people with a more distinct muscular build

a JUNGLE not a forest in central Cyrodiil in fact there are supposed to be multiple rivers draining into the Niben and lake rumare from the Velothi and Jerall mountain ranges.

a Imperial city designed and spider web fashion with enclaves providing different districts over several islands each connected by bridges

the City of Sutch.

and a whole myriad of things I feel I dont need to list as the point has been made <3e


Better Combat, AI and Graphics ALL come with time, they are not what makes Oblivion better than Morrowind, should you hack off these aspects Oblivion would be the poorest in the series really, I enjoy my Oblivion I just don't accept how short it fell when compared to past games, I mean its a new decade a new time, Oblivion isnt even pressured to be a better game that Morrowind because Beth doesnt [censored] out their games like Call of duty or the NHL/Madden games once did. so the fact that it was.....less than Morrowind when shored up without all the shine is disheartening.

Good post :thumbsup:

Well that could have been me.
I have over 2k hours on Oblivion.

And I think that Morrowind is the superior game in every respect, including graphics.
As the follow up to Daggerfall and Morrowind, Oblivion was a total let down. hugely dumbed down and kiddy-fied.
Stupid, stupid mountains and rocks blocking my path making me go: Oh for the love of levitation! every two minutes is just the least of my gripes.

Why do I have over 2k hours on it?
Because, if you dont compare it to the previous games its one of the very best games of its generation.

So dont tell me my opinion is a joke when I have legitimate gripes and opinions.
Its my gameplay experience, not yours and you have no right to make that qualitative conclusion.

I complain about Oblivion not because I think its the worst thing ever.
I complain because when I look at past installments and imagine future ones, I feel there are things Oblivion did that should Not be in #5.
Im on this forum, and I voice my opinion because I care. Because I think elder scrolls is the best RPG game series out there.
Because I want Skyrim to go back to elder scrolls core elements and roots, and not continue the trend Oblivion started.
I do not want a bland, restrictive game.

I want a true elder scrolls.

:flamethrower:
:banghead:
:facepalm:
:flame:
:facepalm:
:banghead:
:flamethrower:

stop the flame war...

I see, but...
Well the level scaling is major flaw.
The setting also didn't fit the lore.
Some people will say that "no item/spell/weapon/skill X" is flaw, but that was based on whether or not you used said skill/weapon/spell, if you didn't, likely you didn't care about its removal.

There was a jungle bordering Black Marsh; but wall-to-wall jungle wouldn't have been especially interesting, IMHO. Besides, didn't someone point out that the "Cyrodiil is a jungle" thing was in itself not lore-correct...?

Once again I find myself agreeing with everything Velorien has to say.

And well done for having the patience to reply to Nameless shall they blah...

Just as the level scaling is based upon whether you want any resistance in the game or it's just one bland big nothingness... I totally agree level scaling was a big flaw, but believe it or not, you'll find people on here who didn't mind it at all... which is all I my point was about

Well really can't take the lore seriously when even the nature of cyrodiil has been altered to something complety else than it was supposed too be. Add no political depth in the game, Oblivion gates that all looked the same, ruins looked all the same nearly everything looked the same! I could not take the game seriously att all. The AI just made me laugh, the npc's was so funny and failed to give me any respect for them. Well a bigger audience is good, should have labeled Oblivion like Redguard who was an adventure game only not an RPG. I played Oblivion allot, did the mainquest, most of the guilds. I quit playing when I saw mannimarco, what a joke!! Even if I played Oblivion first it would still feel hollow. I want really complex RPG games, and not even try to tell me that Oblivion is one of them.

Then again, I love the news regarding SKYRIM!!!! so yeah, we are all elder scrolls fans, even with different views regarding their games.