I read somewhere that each skill would have its own perk tree as well as a subtree for different subskills [eg axe skills in one-handed]. Yet you can choose fiffty perks and there are fifty leevls. Thats a choice of one perk per level. Arnt there eighteen skills. Each skill should have a choice of perks each time you level. So that would mean that the game needs a minumum of 900 perks without any choices per level. Can someone please explain which of these facts are wrong.

Try doing the math when those trees start splitting into branches, but serously not every skill will have fifty perks. Like why would you need fifty differant perks for crafting?

I think the mistake in your facts is expecting your character to develop only one skill for 50 levels.

I don't see why you need a bunch of perks for magic, other than 'You can now cast X level spells now'.

every skill doesn't need 50 in Oblivion or Morrowind did you pick one major skill? no you picked like 7, this is basically how perks replace the classes, by applying them to the skills you want

I dont expect that you would have only one skill.I just went with that assuming that each skill should have equal perks. ie if one skill has a perk on level seven all should.. How do you see it happening.

Well there are as far as we know 280 perks, and 18 skills, which makes 15.5... perks per skill on average.

We know that the constellation view is linked to the perk system, but there are only "13 named constellations" http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Astronomy.

I'm not sure how they will change that or whatever, but my guess is that within one category/constellation there will be branching perk trees (chains of stars). Eg. destruction might feature fire and ice branches. Single hand might feature sword, blunt and axe branches. Three branches, maybe 5+ perks per branch??

Actually that sounds a bit lame, because if you can have 50 perks, then you'd build exactly the same swordsman every time etc... I'm sure they've worked out something great.

Personally I see it like this.. eg let's say you're a thief. Let's say you're using stealth, light blade (ie one handed), lockpicking, alchemy for poisons, and bow. These skills you use will provide you with enough perks to choose from until level 50 so that you develop your character across the lines you chose. Not every skill will have a new perk at each level and there wont be enough perks to develop only one skill for all levels, but between all the skills you use, they'll be enough to offer you a choice at each level.

What I wonder is how the perks offered are decided. Is it according to your level, or according to the level of your skills, free for all and have prerequisites on the perk tree itself, or some other system?

Being able to cast a certain level spells would work better using the skill level itself than perks I think. I can think of a few things that could work for perks:

They already mentioned there'd be some to let you focus on fire, lighting, or ice damage. Other skills could be divided into further specializations similar to the weapons, like illusion has both stealth and mind control spells. Then maybe there could be choices between different bonuses like increased damage for all destruction spells, or reduced casting cost. There's "mace ignores armor" so maybe there could also be "ice ignores x% magic resistance" or something like that.


I think instead of having one smithing perk that's available at level 7 there'd just be a pool of smithing perks. Some might require a previous smithing perk, but I don't expect you'd lose the option to ever take a perk if you don't take it at a certain level.

They way I see it is that you get 50 perks. There are 280 perks. Not every skill has 50 perks in it, I would expect about 10 and then you can take ranks.

So you level up, and you go "well, I have been using axes alot, so I will get a perk in One Handed, Axes." This unlocks thing down the tree under axes more, and your character specialises, say there are only 6 perks for axes plus ranks, and then when you level up you decide you want to also get perks in other skills, this works the same way.

All in all it seems pretty straightforward to all.

it seems really straight forward to me...just think of it as a suplementary skill tree. Most RPGs have skill trees, so this really shouldnt be hard to understand at all.

Think of it like this. Each skill's perk tree spreads out from a central point along 3 or more branches. Each branch represents a specific element of that skill and has multiple perk points along it. (example: the destruction skill branches into fire, lightning, and ice) (Now remember this point because I'm going to come back to it)

There are roughly 280 perks in total and each time you level up your character you get the option to choose a new perk, which will make him more powerful and skilled in a specific talent. I think your mistake is that you think every time you level up a skill, you get to choose a new perk. That's just not the case. Levelling up skills, will make those skills more powerful and will also add to your character's overall experience, but it's only when you level up your character, by increasing his overall experience, that you unlock the option to choose a new perk.

So with a soft cap of 50 levels for your character's overall experience, you will only ever be able to activate 50 individual perks from the possible 280 that you have to choose from.

Now are you still with me so far... :shakehead: ...good.

Going back to the first example I gave; imagine each skill tree containing between 10 and 15 perks that stem out across the specialized branches within that skill. Each perk along those branches would have to be unlocked in a specific order(linear fashion), with the final points on each branch most likely being the most useful and powerful perks within the tree.

So you could choose to become heavily specialized in a specific skill set(mage, warrior, rogue/thief) and eventually master 5 or 6 of the 18 skills in the game by unlocking all the perks in those trees, or you could create a well balanced character that is averagely perked in all the skills...but ultimately, you can only choose 50 perks of the 280.

Personally I like the sound of this system. Its good for extreme specialization while still leaving your character weak in other areas, and more than that, its designed with customization and replayability in mind.

Fire damage specialization? Perhaps you become adept at creating protective shields? Or (hopefully) flying?

Increases fire damage dealt by x%.

Increases the shield value for all shield spells by x%.

Increases flight speed by x%.

Wonder if it works like this...
Fire Spell (Regular would prob be touch)
Perk 1 Fire Rune
Perk 2 Flamethrower
Perk 3 Fireball
Perk 4 Fire Spray (This is suppose to work like a summoned fire can that sprays where you want it.)

If not then that could possibly be 5 spells out of the 85 ;0

It's pretty simple. Perks buff the skill you're using in a particular way. Say you use a perk from the Destruction subset. You could choose perks that benefit lightning attacks, or fire attacks, or maybe a perk that has an effect on when you cast spells with both hands. There is a perk that ignores armor for maces. It is for the One Handed Weapons skill. There are many many many perks for every different playstyle.

All of that stuff should be part of spell creation, or effects in their own right, not perks. I really cant see any magic perks other than ones that just let you cast higher level spells. Perks for lowering Mana costs? Just raise Intelligence, or that skill. I don't want spell specialization and customization to come from perks.

The only way I end up with the claim that there should be 900 perks, is if I can choose a perk for each skill at each level up. So, at each level up, I get to choose 18 perks. 18 x 50 = 900. I think that's where the OP is going wrong - in thinking that you can choose a perk for each skill at each level up.

As people have pointed out, at each level up, you only get to choose one perk. Just one. Not eighteen (as in, one for each skill). That's why you'll only have 50 perks once you get to level 50. (And that's why you'll miss out on the vast majority of the 280 perks in the game).

And there are 9 or 10 stars per constellation, which means 9 or 10 different perks, some with ranks. Of course some constellations may have more less stars, we can only see 4 I think from the pic.

The purpose of perks is to pigeonhole the character, and that's a good thing. What you're describing is Oblivion's magic system, which was unimaginative and boring.

Spell creation is unimaginative and boring? LOL

Again, I really don't see what perks can do, that spell creation cant. Name me a magic perk. Something logical.

No, what's boring is everything being tied to the parent skill.

What's a good magic perk? Decrease all spell casting times by 20% while increasing magicka costs for all spells by 10%. Additional bonuses for magic attacks from magical stealth. Like other people have suggested, perks for improved effects from a chosen element or type of spell.

I think it would work better if you defend your previous statement;



Why not? Without perks, every mage will inevitable become the same as another. Considering all damaging effects come from one school, destruction, all offensive mages would be exactly the same without modification from perks.

Spell creation/customization. It makes characters play a lot more different than what you just described. X spell does X more damage, or X spells cost X amount less mana is boring. New effects? I guess, but why wouldn't they be there in the first place. Ice slowing an enemy, or fire spreading could be perks, but Id rather have spell creation, since its 1000 times deeper.

Who says perks and spell customization have to be mutually exclusive?

Well, besides bethesda, who has their head up their ass on this subject.

They don't, but I cant really think of anything perk wise that would dramatically alter game-play, magic wise. Especially for spells outside of Destruction. Unless they go with reimplementing older stuff, like 'You can now soul trap summons' type perk. The second part of your statement...I cant tell if thats sarcasm.

the more i hear about the perks, the more it seems like each skill tree will branch out to be like the wow talent system or the diablo 2 skill trees.

eg.....

Destruction
/ | \
Fire Ice Lightning
/|\ /|\ /|\
PERKS

Also i must say perks saying that you can X lvl spells now are the most boring perks you can have. Spell making in oblivion and morrowind was used to offset the extremely high mana costs for bought spells.