I occasionally come across people saying that the elder scrolls universe is mythopoetic; belief shapes reality.

The most prevalent example is that of the aedra being brought back to "life" via faith. Of course, this took nearly all of tamriel believing in the existance (and possibly interference and action) of the aedra, and for a very long time.

I suppose the same doesn't apply to rumors, for instance. That mostly because I think a mythopoetic action requires a large amount of believers and a long duration in which said belief is prevalent.

But what about circumstances that are less significant? What about beliefs or world views are prevalent throughout time and accepted by a significant portion of the population, or even the majority?

In the context of archeology; archeologists of tamriel make logical assumptions based on their findings. The theories which become wildly accepted in future generations will end up changing the past!

This means that later archeaological findings will conform to current theory more that they would otherwise!

Let's think of Akavir, for example. Despite the invasions from Akavir and to Akavir, we and the population of tamriel does not know much about it. What the population of Tamriel knows is bits and pieces about snow demons, tiger dragons, vampire snakemen and all that jazz.

This is true since the 1st Era. This means that by the 3rd or 4th era, Akavir (and its past) may have changed due to belief!

The same probably applies to all races and especially orcs. Prevalent stereotypes that persist for large amounts of time should affect the race in question!

What do you guys think about all of this?

Could this have some connection to Tiber Septim's "ascendance," to divinity? Or was there not enough time between his death and the spread of the belief that he was a divine for this to be the case?

It's certainly possible to change stuff, but i don't think Akavir's any different due to belief. Don't forget that its own denizens have beliefs as well, it's not like they're just a defenceless blob to be molded from a distance, they're not likely to change due to Tamrielic belief simply because they have their own beliefs keeping them as they are.


Also, if i may go slightly off topic...


Tiber Septim's ascendance was not done through public force of belief, though his power now is sustained by it (hence the Thalmor trying to wipe it out). He was ascended through a bunch of stuff involving getting the Mantella working (essentially creating a ghetto Heart of Lorkhan, since he trapped a Shezzarine in it), and later joining souls with Wulfharth and Zurin in death to form the Talos oversoul when whichever of the latter two was the Underking dies in the Warp in the West. He basically took over as a replacement for Lorkhan to help keep the Mundus stable.

To clarify, Talos literally did not exist until late 3E when the Warp happened. Then he does some timey wimey shenanigans and rewrites the timeline to make it like he'd actually been a god for a long time (much like what the Tribunal pulled) and CHIM'd stuff around (converting Cyrodil into grassland, etc.). You as the Blades Agent in TES2 are essentially responsible for creating Talos . That also means that stuff like the PGE1 are simply remnants of that now-erased version of the timeline.

The jungle is a good place to start. Ayleid ruins conform to the geology of modern Cyrodiil in a surprising way. I mean, how likely is it that the transformation of an entire province's ecosystem didn't end up breaking some of the older elven structures?

It was changed retroactively, so that none of the ruins were broken by the change. This is very weird/cool.

I have a question regarding this, though. If belief=reality then why did the Marukhati try to get rid of the Elven part of Akatosh? Do some tower shenanigans count more than belief? My current understanding is that the belief of Cyrodiils and Nords was not enough to counteract the Altmer, Ayleids and Bosmer, even though the Altmer and Bosmer believed in Auriel and not Akatosh. I can't make sense of that. The Alessians began a genocide against the Ayleids in 1E 361, and it wasn't until 1E 1200 that the tower-dancing happened, so they had plenty of time to ethnically cleanse Cyrodiil of its elven people and of their countervailing belief in Akatosh's Elvishness.

What's the deal here?

Belief is just the start. Mythopoeia, in Tamriel, is to install a brand new mythos in one cataclysm, by usurping the old which developed across millennia. That can only be done by violence against time-space, and that's why the Right Reaching, Endeavor, and Anumidium came to be.

Does that mean that you can "replace" a fact of tamriel with something not true (but perhaps probable)? Does believing the aedra back to "life" qualify?

Regarding the Daedra, while they certainly thrive on belief, they're still powerful in their own right and can handle themselves. Whereas the Aedra are... not quite dead, but certainly drained, both from their contributions to Mundus's creation and them being an intrinsic part of the Mundus and its finiteness. They're fatigued and crippled and mortal, and it takes belief to keep them in power, whereas the Daedra did not contribute to the Mundus and are not linked to it, so they have plenty of power to do pretty much whatever.

So the Daedra have the goal of ending Aedric belief. Then the Aedra are dead, and the Daedra can do as they will.

As I understand it, mythopoeia is limited in its effects, generally to Mundus and possibly only to the Earthbones and other Aedric entities (of which more in a moment). This means that affecting past events etc via mythopoeia isn't possible - the interaction with the Aedra is done, and so mythopoeia doesn't apply. To my mind the only way this would change is via a Dragon Break, but all bets are off on those things anyway.

The principle of "once, therefore always" is something that I've only ever seen to apply to Aedra, so time shenanigans aren't quite as universal.

Auriel still exists in some form. And belief is only one form of mythopoeic manipulation, of which the Selectives' actions were another. Belief itself is actually one of the weaker and harder to use forms in my mind. I have https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2nlte4/telling_what_you_believe_mythopoeia_and_faith_on/, which outlines some of my thoughts on the matter more fully. The tl;dr is that harenessing belief to change reality involves controlling and directing the thoughts of many, whereas many of the other Walking Ways are only concerned with changing the self. While not 'easy' as such, these certainly have less moving parts to worry about.

I'm not sure it's a goal as such...

They already can do what they will, on their own plane(t)s. It's only on Mundus, of which they are not a part, that their actions are limited. Also bear in mind that "as they will" is not "they can do anything". Each daedra has a particular nature, which they will never willingly go against. It takes an external force to change that (such as Jyggylagg and Sheogorath).

Yes, such as Vivec always being a god, and Akatosh saving the world from Mehrunes Dagon. But what do you mean by "life"? Its in quotes, so I'm not sure what you mean. They've had avatars, both Mara and Zenithar appear in Morrowind, besides Talos.

Does CHIM qualify as mythopoeic manipulation, though? It's certainly not due to a consensus reality.

Not really, no. That'd destabilize the Mundus something fierce. The Daedra want influence, and they'll certainly retaliate against actual opposition, but competition simply being present isn't necessarily an issue. Mehrunes Dagon does want to destroy it because it's his nature (and if the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga is anything to go by, Alduin cursed him to destroy the bits of the Mundus he was stashing away each Kalpha behind Alduin's back), Molag Bal wants to control it by merging it with Coldharbour, but everyone else is content just using it as their plaything.

The Daeda - aside from Dagon - don't want to ruin their favorite toy. And even Dagon would be smart enough to realize that if the Mundus just falls apart without the Divines (and Talos especially) holding it together, well then there's really nothing for him to destroy is there? He wants to destroy it himself, not leave it to someone or something else to do it. So Aedric influence is something they more or less tolerate (put up with, really), at least so far as it's not interfering with their plans.


More or less, it is, yeah. They rewrote their past to make it so they've been gods for a long time, and that they've been worshipped as such for a long time. In other words, they established that belief retroactively.

CHIM is definitely mythopoesis. Mythopoeia has to be more than believing in something strongly, to effect it takes the means of harnessing reality. If the Dwemer only needed to believe in something hard enough, they'd have won without Anumidium, nor the Selective have needed the Middle Dawn.