Well, if the Aedra's gift limbs formed the Earth Bones, the laws of nature, the Atomos, and they're dead, how come the laws of nature are still working?

Umaril calls them mortal

Lorkan?

The Et'ada that became laws of nature became them only because are they are dead.

What about Jyggalag? He's the most Anuic/stasis-y being around, yet he's a Daedric Prince.

Also, if the Aedra represent stasis, their creations would not be able to die. Death is the ultimate form of change; immortality is the ultimate expression of stasis. Otherwise, the Anuic-leaning Elves wouldn't be so pissed about their mortality.

Stasis and change isn't the defining difference between Aedra and Daedra.

And regarding your statement about Daedra not having any "parts": source? Because Clavicus Vile/Barbas seems to contradict you, as well as Umbriel stealing a piece of Clavicus' realm.

On the level here: he's 100% correct. Except that he's completely wrong. That second part's only because he lost.

The hearts you see in the game are parts of the "shell" the daedroth assumes on the mortal plane. Once it is destroyed and it's essence is cast back into Oblivion, it's just an alchemy ingredient.

Tricked by Lorkhan, they bound themselves to the mortal plane, thus sharing in its mortality. That's how the http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aedra_and_Daedra worked.

The Aedra are both "dead" since they split their essence into countless pieces and "alive" because they formed the world. Thus the Aedra live on as long as the world exists. Mankars ramblings on the other hand go against all lore we have on creation, Lorkhan, aedra and daedra.

The Aedra are not truly "dead", but they can be split into pieces indefinitely. Even while the original aedra spirit doesn't exist, it still lives on as the Earth bones and a divine people are worshiping. That's what the Thalmor are attempting with Talos. Since he's not rooted in the Bones (he wasn't one of the original et'ada) they assume that once no one worships him, he would be essentially dead. However we still do not know what exactly their plans are or if that's even possible.

The daedric princes represent change, because they cannot create. They represent concepts, not laws. The aedra, on the other hand represent creation and its subsequent upkeep via laws, that's what I meant by stasis (maybe that is a bit misleading). Jyggalag is an interesting Daedric Prince because we have virtually no information on his motives and goals, except for this "stasis" bit. That makes him completely against aedra, Lorkhan and Mundus however, because he would rather stop creation and entropy altogether. He is also both against change and pro change, since he wants to influence the world to fit his liking, just like any other daedra. That can certainly explain why he was disliked by the other deadra or why they choose madness as his curse.

Parts of a Daedric Prince's essence can be separated for a time. Just like the artifacts (remember the MQ from Oblivion) they can exist in our world for a while, but if their physical from is destroyed they return to its master. A daedroth cannot be split into parts indefinitely, because of the creation pact. The Aedra traded their immortality for the ability to create, the daedra refused and remained unable to create and die, yet able to change (themselves, too).

Clavicus essence stored in Barabas could've been returned to him by simply banishing/slaying the mutt. It would take Clavicus quite a while to track this part and reintegrate it, however. And don't even start me on the books, they have upset the lore for the sake of drama way too much.

Yes, upon his victory, he would probably be powerful enough to shape Mundus a bit, but not that radical. I'm not counting on it, however, because I did not expect Dagon to hold up on his part of the bargain.

I thought a Daedra Heart contained their soul or something like that. Aren't pieces of Daedric armor supposed to have a Daedra bound to it?

That's just gameplay mechanic. Since the soulgems are no longer labeled with the souls they contain (like in Morrowind), they needed something else for the crafting process.

Once you collect the heart, the dremora's animus is already "swimming" in the waters of Oblivion. Maybe the residual energy is still sufficient, but that contradicts previous lore.

Daedra can create. They just don't cut pieces of themselves off to do it (though even that isn't always the case, see Clavicus Vile and Umbra). Where else do you think scamps and dremora and such come from? Or the various diseases of Daedric origin?

Besides, what is change except creating one thing from another thing? The Aedra created the world by changing themselves. The Dwemer created Numidium by changing/manipulating the earthbones in specific ways.

I think the major difference is not just cutting into pieces to create, but "cutting into pieces to mix with other pieces to create".

The Creation of Mundus is not just let the Aedra split themselves, but to make something new with every Aedra elements involved. This is a process with anti-subgradient nature, a try of Lorkhan apart from the old ways like Ruptga and his walking to Far-Shore.

On the other hand, the Daedra could create within themselves, but they never get mixed with other Daedra. That is to say, Azura creates a Winged Twilight out of herself, and all parts of this Winged Twilight are what of Azura, never with elements from other Daedra Princes. If this Winged Twilight get herself into the control of other Princes, her nature would then change. On contrast those in Mundus are all part Akatosh and part of Kynareth and part of Mara and so on. Almost everything in Mundus is a mixture.

And this is the reason why we use "sons and daughters" more with the meaning of "related to", not "biological born".

That's exactly the point, the daedra cannot create anything stand-alone. They can change existing aedric material, daedric animuses or themselves, but they don't create anything on their own. All the daedric artifacts are just pieces of a prince, but he can reclaim and reintegrate them, while the aedra cannot. The same goes for lesser daedra, they are inseparable parts of Oblivion and will return there if banished.

The aedra created the world by splitting their essence and constructing Mundus from it, thus it can exist on its own, without being tied with the original aedra anymore. The daedra lack this ability which is considered "creation" on Nirn.

It's the mortality/creation by sacrifice and cooperation versus inseparability/immortality which divides the Aedra and Daedra. That's the basics of Nirn's cosmology, really.

The Dwemer are completely unrelated to it as we still do not know whether they ascended or descended on the gradience or if they simply uncreated themselves.

Yeh, when we say "creation" we mean something new out of the old, with difference from the parental base, or it is not a creation, but merely duplication.

It is the cooperation nature that makes the final line between Aedra and Daedra. Only by mixing parts of the old can something new be born. Daedra just are too self-consumed that they lack of such ability.

How does that work with lycanthropy and vampirism? That's mixing stuff of Daedric origin with stuff of Aedric origin, to create werebeasts and vampires. Or undead werewolves, mixing Hircine's creation with Bal's.

That's after the Creation of Mundus, the same route as Daedra Princes began to lure mortal souls who originally were pieces of Aedra into their own realms to become totally pieces of his own. Daedra Princes never "mix" with Aedra. They just overwrite the Aedra into Daedra, totallly abandoned the origin Aedric nature.

Also, Hircine cannot make a lesser daedroth from other Prince to become lycanthropy. Whoever becomes a were-being is either a mortal from Mundus or a daedroth out of the realm of Hircine his own. Like mentioned in the 16 accounts of madness

Hircine cannot infect a daedroth from Bal or Sheogorath to become a were-being.

The same as the Vampirism.

As for undead werewolves, my memories fails me so where had these creature been shown up? Also, are we sure that their undead nature comes from Bal? IIRC all undead except for the vampires are more or less related to the Soul Cairn, whose nature is still very obscure, as there's no Prince of the Soul Cairn, and the Ideal Masters seems to be independent from the real Princes.

I thought death was stasis? Death is entropy, for certain. Life (scientifically) consists of chemical disequilibrium - fighting entropy in order to maintain homeostasis. Fighting to keep oneself existent in the face of, well, everything.

That's still altering existing material. Lycantropy is a daedric curse which alters aedric-created material. A daedric Prince can also alter an existing curse, since the curse's recipient is still not daedric in this case!

Vampirism is not necessarily attributed to Bal. For example, in Morrowind, the player could be cured of Vampirism by performing a service for Molag Bal. Upon completion of that task, Molag Bal fetched a cure vampirism item from Vaermina and transformed the player back. It still still unclear whether vampirism is entirely daedric or if it is something else altered by Molag Bal.

Chemistry doesn't exist on Nirn, anyway. Death is a part of the circle of life, even the souls (well, most of 'em) get recycled in the Dreamsleeve. The earth bones permitting life remain, life gets recreated anew.

They're in TESO. And when someone asked a dev about it at PAX, he said Hircine is pretty pissed off at Bal over it.

Well, I think if you consider the death system in the TES world, with the whole reincarnation system, maybe death means more as "changing identity". Aedra are dead that they are no longer their former selves.

TESO...

Sometimes I really don't understand why TESO is trying to drag all undead stuff into the realm of Bal. This would suggest the Ideal Masters are also minions of Bal. If so, why the Soul Cairn is always described as "with no ruling Princes"?

As I said, the werewolf is still an aedric being, now affected by two daedric-altered curses.

Additionally, the TES:O lore is quite peculiar. Peculiar as in screw it.

I don't see how this precludes Lorkhan from being a Daedric Prince if you assume that Nirn is his plane.

Besides, it's difficult to disprove Mankar's theory by using traditional definitions and myths regarding the Aedra and Daedra, since Mankar's theory is based entirely on the idea that the traditional definitions and myths are wrong. As MK said, it "really flips the idea of Tamriel on it's head."

You'd have to first prove that the traditional definitions and myths are true. Once you do, then Mankar's ideas fall apart like a house of cards before a Thu'um.

Of course, it's also not impossible to believe that Mehrune's was just messing with Mankar's head to get him to cooperate, or that the other Princes were manipulating Mehrune's for [censored] and giggles, as Haskill comments that Mehrune's is "the pawn of every Prince of true power, the dupe of every schemer in the Nineteen Voids." And given that Mankar was the antagonist, story-wise his theory is going to be wrong about everything.

Because you cannot separate a daedric prince from his plane or destroy him permanently or even for a single era. This would also make every inhabitant of said plane, even the player a daedroth. Additionally, this would nullify half the lore, ranging from the impossibility of the Luminal barriers up to everyone's mortality. Also, flipping everything on it's head is a common tactic to confuse initiates in order to manipulate them.

No, actually, he has to prove everything he says. But the only thing he does is to question everything without providing any proof. That's a common tactic for religious (or any) fanatics. Or madmen, if there's a difference.

That's actually more likely, because all this scheming is way too intellectual for Mehrunes. His dominion is destruction, not subterfuge. He wants to destroy everything (just as with Mournhold), not to reclaim it. But he is still clever enough to manipulate Mankar or implement someone else's plan.

I'm not sure it is really correct to assign specifically "stasis" or "change" as the alignment of et'Ada. It's kinda more complicated, isn't it?

"Today the common parlance is that only the eight that followed Lorkhan and created the Mundus are truly "Aedra," but this is folly. Some were not even the strongest of the Aetherius-aligned etada at the time, but were made as such by their creation of the dawn.

Remember, even the word "Daedra" started as a youthful rebellion."
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/more-about-aedra-daedra

"What was left of the Aurbis was solid change, otherwise known as magic. The etada called this Aetherius."
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower

Solid change (yay, an oxymoron!), aka magic, aka Aetherius. "Aedra" are Aetherius-aligned. Not just "stasis"-aligned.

Just in case, a reminder for newbie lurkers: both Mundus and the daedric realms are made of this - of magic, of leaked aetheric creatia (see the Nu-Mantia Intercept http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept ). Nothing else actually "exists".


...and then there were these old topics archived on TIL, check'em out if you looking for more fuel to your fire...
http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumArchives/aedra.htm
http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumArchives/Aedra_Daedra_and_Gods.htm
http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumArchives/Creation_of_the_EtAda.htm

There you go. Keep going with that.

If death (as we know it) is not an "end" in Tamriel, it is a change. Perhaps the Gods of Stasis cannot die because they cannot change, not in such a fundamental way.