Greetings, honored scholars, many times have I walked past these great halls and never set foot inside - but now I come bearing a query that has left me perplexed. I am but a novice when it comes to the matter of the divines and the true nature of the cosmos, but tell me: is the mystical nature of the heavens truly as it says in texts such as http://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology or is this merely the religious interpretation of otherwise natural phenomena? I understand that magic is science in Tamriel, but if our own history is any judge then they could simply be false observations based more on tradition than inquisitive exploration.

The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of creating new night sky textures for Skyrim, and that got me thinking about what you would realistically expect to see in the skies above Tamriel: would there be wisps of galactic cloud as seen from our own planet, would the stars appear as densely, and so on. If the reality is that religion has offered a false explanation for the heavens being as they are, then the conditions on Tamriel might well look similar as on Earth (albeit with twice the number of moons, and them much closer.) But if it's all as mystical as claimed, then anything could be possible since the regular cosmological trends need not apply.

Any insights, or texts I might peruse to find out?

I've always understood this as a religious interpretation of an actual physical universe. I know quite a few others have accepted the other side of this, and believe the religious portrayal is not a symbolic understanding, but factual. It's not a topic I've delved into for years, but at the time I believe the discussion settled on the fact that there is no hard confirmation either way.

Well given that the cosmology holds that the appearance of the night sky is due to mortal mental stress I'd say that for the appearance the difference is moot. From down here, holes to Aetherius and stars look rather alike.

Redguard had an Orrery that also showed a brightly coloured night sky. Perhaps you can use that for inspiration.

Redguard also had a starmap to show the relative position of the constellations in the sky.

Speaking of the Orrerys, they do consistently show the planets in impossible orbits.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-firmament also describes how the constellations rotate around Nirn in relation to the sun.

I'm not sure how this relates to the redguard starmap though, they may be incompatible.

Thanks for the information. I guess ultimately Nirn is a fantasy world, and doesn't bear too much scrutiny for realistic astronomy and physics.

Or, in the words of another fantasy author: "Things just happen, what the hell."

I think there are definitely physics and realism behind the universe in TES, but all of that knowledge died with the Dwemer. No other culture has the technology or philosophical aptitude to develop such outrageous ideas that contradict the Divines. The current knowledge of the night sky in the lore is only a way to explain what they see, it might not be accurate.

Nirn is a universe built on the bones of dead gods and the ever evolving memories of mortals. It makes no sense for it to follow Earth physics.

You realize that real cultures (Norse culture for example, and that is only one of many) on Earth believed the same things, right? You tell me if they turned out true or not.

That is the whole basis of science, nothing is ever final. Things always change as we learn more about them. To quote Albert Einstein: "All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree." Science explains what religion can't, and religion explains what science can't. The arts are a way to express what we know or believe about both of them.

Nirn is Nirn, Earth is Earth. What is true for one does not necessarily apply for the other. When the Lords of Misrule are mere attention gettings away, and the heart of a god did beat under red mountain, it is folly to doubt the existence of the earthbones.

Oh boy, not this discussion again.

On Earth, we can make measurements that tell us that our world is round or that stars are really far away burning balls of hydrogen. On Nirn, we have very real gods showing up to tell us how the world works, we have time breaking down became the time god has been broken, we have 'astronauts' who have traveled outside of the Mundus and can tell us that it isn't anything like our version of space. It isn't a case of mortals not knowing anything (though they most certainly aren't right about everything either).

As the Pocket Guide to the Empire (3rd edition) notes, people have both been to the god-planets, Oblivion and Aetherius. In fact, they went to far as to have collected celestial minerals, which they kept at Firsthold.
Those are not superstitously ignorant people who don't grasp physics, those are people in a universe that simply does not work like ours.

Interesting, where can I learn more of this tale?

Just because portions of it are different doesn't mean that the entirety of it is different.

Doesn't mean there are similarities either.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-third-edition-magic-aetherius

Also of interest: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/Image.php?id=98065
That's from "Books of Vvardenfell". Back then, stuporstar checked this with the loreforum and afaik consensus was that this is the most canon drawing of the universe we had at the time (and IIRC it still is).

Look, they built magical spaceships and used them to reach an infinite space of magicka by flying through the sun. How does that even remotely work like our universe?

Now we're arguing semantics. This is like arguing the Ancient Alien theory, there is no proof or disproof which leads to an endless argument. Obviously magic exists in the lore, which I'm not trying to argue against, but science also exists. In real history (yes I am aware that TES is not real), people used "magic" to explain things they can't see. No one in TES has seen every single thing when it comes to the workings of the universe. Until someone applies the scientific method to various aspects of universal workings in TES, it is pointless to say whether something can or can't exist. I'm just trying to point out the possibility that TES does have some physical reality to it.

@Anonytroll: We have "magical" spaceships too if you went back and time and asked medieval scientists how they work. Magic and reality are perspective.

Perfect! Exactly what I was looking for, thanks.

You'd be hardpressed to find any medieval scientist who used their spaceships to fly to the planets and bring back celestial minerals. Which is what happened in TES.
I'm not even sure what you saying anymore, but seem to be arguing that the scientific method somehow isn't applicable because it's not giving you the results you want (e.g. they really can reach fluffy cloud heaven when flying through the sun). That's patently ridiculous.


Happy to help. Scratch "canon", and replace it with "accurate" though, I'm a bit through a blender today.

I'm not saying that at all. Magic obviously exists like in the example that you gave, and I'm not claiming that is physical possible. The scientific method has nothing to do with physical possibility, it is still applicable to magical phenomena like your example. I'm saying that there could very well be real life physics behind TES lore that none of us are aware of. Then again it could all be magic-based, but I'm trying to point out the possibility that it does hold some physical similarities with real life. To say that anything is final (unless confirmed by Bethesda) is contradictory to scientific theory. Judging by how a lot of TES lore is intentionally vague, I'm betting that Bethesda wants us to come up with the conclusions on our own.

One more question, while the thread is still up: are you supposed to be able to see the stars through the dark side of the moon, or was that "bug" retconned?

I read something about the transparent moon but I can't remember if it was a bug or intentional.

Yes, that's what I asked - but I'd like to get an answer from someone who actually knows.

Indeed although wouldn't Necromancers Moon be orbiting Arkay now ?

There's no hard confirmation either way.

But the view of an Earth-like scientific solar system is impossible. At least until I hear a convincing explanation of how two moons can suddenly disappear from the sky for an extended period, how new constellations can be created and destroyed according to events on Nirn, how stars can pass across the heavens when the normal flow of time is disrupted.

The people of Tamriel are not medieval ignoramuses. They have traveled to Oblivion and Aetherius and through the void, by magic and by vehicles. They know what is there.

There are various other interpretations, but some of them are really just the preferences of Flat-Earthers.


You are mistaken, and your parallels to real-world religious misconceptions of the cosmos don't hold up.

The Dwemeri understanding of the universe was not that advanced versus current Altmeri and Imperial science. Both these cultures have space programs. No joke.

So far as physical laws go, they do exist, but are divine constructs. This is also not in doubt, because the Dwemer studied them scientifically, and were able to break these laws. The ultimate law of the universe is mythopoetic reflection of the Enantiomorph, itself a term from real-world physics. If you wish, understand Anu and Padomay as two opposing atomic particles orbiting each other before a Big Bang.



I would guess that the transparent moon in Morrowind was a glitch that inspired a bit of lore.

Indeed, but was it ever retconned back out again (I don't recall seeing transparent moons in Oblivion) or does it remain canonical?

I don't know. TIL has them with actual holes in the Temple Zero http://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology writeup, but I'm not aware of any other source claiming the same. Probably a dog ate my homework moment?
You can sometimes see the stars through the dark side of the moons in Oblivion too, depending on how strategically placed the clouds are, btw.

I don't know. It surely is somewhere between Nirn and Arkay.